The Maya Crisis...

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

kzt wrote:They simply issue them and blandly tell objectors to sue them.

LOL thanks kzt

SWM:
What difference would it make to them if it's illegal under the law? They don't think anyone will ever hold them accountable.

Rob

David has made it quite clear that the League cannot just ignore those laws. If they tried to issue taxes or illegal borrowing, the League members (who would be the ones PAYING them) would stomp it flat. Yes, it would make a difference to them that it is illegal under the law. The Mandarins can get away with a lot of things, but costing the League members money is not one of them.

SWM wrote:The Mandarins can get away with a lot of things, but costing the League members money is not one of them.

And in a way, that's the root of the League's problems. They crippled the government's legal and constitutional capabilities and still expected it to do something. So it went out and got money every other way - creating a government by corruption and a frontier that's a continual foreign relations meltdown managed entirely by brute force and public ignorance.

The League's lasted this long mostly because almost everything it inside it or under its creeping heel, it's not objectionable for the Core Worlds, and taking on the sheer collection of practically independent systems constituting the League has been either avoidable or impossible for the disgruntled neighbors - til now. Even then, it's hopeless if it means taking on that huge collection of powerful systems. But loosening the ties that bind them and taking on "just" the League institutions is doable for Manticore. (And really doable for the combination of Manticore, Beowulf, Haven, Maya, and the Alignment....)

No, they will simply lie. "This bill won't raise your taxes, it will save each family an average of $2500 per year."

SWM wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
[snip]

SWM:
What difference would it make to them if it's illegal under the law? They don't think anyone will ever hold them accountable.

Rob

David has made it quite clear that the League cannot just ignore those laws. If they tried to issue taxes or illegal borrowing, the League members (who would be the ones PAYING them) would stomp it flat. Yes, it would make a difference to them that it is illegal under the law. The Mandarins can get away with a lot of things, but costing the League members money is not one of them.

So how do they fund the guarantees for system infrastructure , as cited in TOF, like the major construction supposedly ongoing on Hiawatha (wherever that is)? T-notes and bonds from the treasury wouldn't cost League "Members" anything, they'll squeeze money out of the turnips --uh the protectorates. So League members aren't going to care.

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

SWM wrote:David has made it quite clear that the League cannot just ignore those laws. If they tried to issue taxes or illegal borrowing, the League members (who would be the ones PAYING them) would stomp it flat. Yes, it would make a difference to them that it is illegal under the law. The Mandarins can get away with a lot of things, but costing the League members money is not one of them.

So how do they fund the guarantees for system infrastructure , as cited in TOF, like the major construction supposedly ongoing on Hiawatha (wherever that is)? T-notes and bonds from the treasury wouldn't cost League "Members" anything, they'll squeeze money out of the turnips --uh the protectorates. So League members aren't going to care.

Rob

Which guarantees for system infrastructure are you talking about? I don't recall this reference, can you find it? It would surprise me greatly if the League were responsible for any infrastructure. That's not the way the League government has been described. Infrastructure is generally handled by the individual League members.

And regarding T-notes and bonds--who do you think would be buying T-notes and bonds? Generally it is governments and large corporations, and League members are probably the largest buyers of bonds in the galaxy. They would certainly notice if the League started selling bonds. Yes, I think they would object.

JeffEngel wrote:

SWM wrote:The Mandarins can get away with a lot of things, but costing the League members money is not one of them.

And in a way, that's the root of the League's problems. They crippled the government's legal and constitutional capabilities and still expected it to do something. So it went out and got money every other way - creating a government by corruption and a frontier that's a continual foreign relations meltdown managed entirely by brute force and public ignorance.

The League was originally set up when it took the better part of a year to get from Earth to the periphery; it was never intended to be an actual interstellar government. It was intended to be a basis for interstellar commercial and scientific standards and to prevent things like the Final War and Eradni Edict violations.

What did the League in was discovering how to operate in higher bands of hyperspace and the discovery of wormholes. That shrunk travel time sufficiently that more government was possible, and the framework simply wasn't there.

A major reason it's falling apart is machinations by the MAlign; there is no evidence that it would be in as bad a shape if they hadn't been weakening it for centuries.

kzt wrote:No, they will simply lie. "This bill won't raise your taxes, it will save each family an average of $2500 per year."

It would appear that the Mandarins don't agree that such a lie would be simple, and I have to agree with them. They might well be able to mount such a disinformation campaign well enough to convince a sizeable slice of the voters, but at a federal level the voters don't matter anyway. It's the system governments and the transtellars that matter, and if the federal bureaucracy starts openly flouting the Constitution like that they're afraid that they'll trigger a real constitutional crisis which could bring down whole house of cards.

As opposed to what happening?

SWM,

I am at the library, not at home, and I don't have ToF on digits.

For the conversation regarding the Treasury assuming full responsibility of the Maya Sectors' bonds for Erewhonese construction, look at the conversation Barregos and Roszak had over dinner--it is after the part when they discuss the merits of shallots, but on the next page, I think. Barregos is quite happy that the League is insisting on taking full control of the Maya Sector's bonds-- because it makes the bonds "a charge" on the League, instead of the Maya Sector's government.

--which implies also, albeit indirectly, that such bonds are a common fact of life in the Sollie Treasury.

The dinner takes place before the intel froma Ajax' resident gunnrunner, so it isn't all that far in, but if you have it on digits, "shallots" ought to get you right to it.

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:SWM,

I am at the library, not at home, and I don't have ToF on digits.

For the conversation regarding the Treasury assuming full responsibility of the Maya Sectors' bonds for Erewhonese construction, look at the conversation Barregos and Roszak had over dinner--it is after the part when they discuss the merits of shallots, but on the next page, I think. Barregos is quite happy that the League is insisting on taking full control of the Maya Sector's bonds-- because it makes the bonds "a charge" on the League, instead of the Maya Sector's government.

--which implies also, albeit indirectly, that such bonds are a common fact of life in the Sollie Treasury.

The dinner takes place before the intel froma Ajax' resident gunnrunner, so it isn't all that far in, but if you have it on digits, "shallots" ought to get you right to it.

Rob

Yes, I do remember that, but what I remember of it does not imply that the Solarian League takes out bonds. I believe it just meant that the League would take responsibility for paying off the bonds if necessary. I will check on it again, though.

But what I was asking about was your reference to the League needing to take out bonds for infrastructure at "Hiawatha". I don't recall anything about the League building up infrastructure.