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Defense of Lynx, the system

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Re: Defense of Lynx, the system
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:51 pm

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saber964 wrote:
SWM wrote:Spindle was chosen as the capital of the Talbott Quadrant because it was already the headquarters for the economic association of the Talbott Cluster. Lynx was not a member of the Talbott Cluster, and never had been. And at the time that Spindle was being chosen as the capital of the Talbott Quadrant, Lynx had already been a full member of the Star Kingdom of Manticore for years. Lynx was a member of the Star Kingdom before the Talbott Cluster even got around to asking.


Lynx was a 'member' of the Tallbot Cluster it just happened to be the closest system to the termanus. According to RFC Lynx basically sent back the request for annexation with the HMS Harvest Joy when she returned to Manticore. Also Lynx only beat out the rest of the cluster as a member of the SEM by a few months, as a member of the OSKM.

It's worth distinguishing between 'Talbott Cluster' as an informal, really vague astrographical region and 'Talbott Cluster' as a provisional political entity seeking admission into the SKM.

Lynx was not a part of the political entity - it already was getting admitted directly to the Old Star Kingdom, ahead of and independently of Van Dort's annexation movement.

Lynx probably was a part of the (vague, informal, downright sloppy) region as considered astrographically. All that really takes is being around there and the vagaries of informal usage.
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Re: Defense of Lynx, the system
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:34 pm

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saber964 wrote:
SWM wrote:Spindle was chosen as the capital of the Talbott Quadrant because it was already the headquarters for the economic association of the Talbott Cluster. Lynx was not a member of the Talbott Cluster, and never had been. And at the time that Spindle was being chosen as the capital of the Talbott Quadrant, Lynx had already been a full member of the Star Kingdom of Manticore for years. Lynx was a member of the Star Kingdom before the Talbott Cluster even got around to asking.


Lynx was a 'member' of the Tallbot Cluster it just happened to be the closest system to the termanus. According to RFC Lynx basically sent back the request for annexation with the HMS Harvest Joy when she returned to Manticore. Also Lynx only beat out the rest of the cluster as a member of the SEM by a few months, as a member of the OSKM.

JeffEngel wrote:It's worth distinguishing between 'Talbott Cluster' as an informal, really vague astrographical region and 'Talbott Cluster' as a provisional political entity seeking admission into the SKM.

Lynx was not a part of the political entity - it already was getting admitted directly to the Old Star Kingdom, ahead of and independently of Van Dort's annexation movement.

Lynx probably was a part of the (vague, informal, downright sloppy) region as considered astrographically. All that really takes is being around there and the vagaries of informal usage.



Kinda hard to tell; also, it is said (I think in ART or SoF) that not all of the inhabited systems in the Cluster actually sent reps to the Constitutional Convention, so the author may decide at some point to trot out a system that isn't part of the Quadrant, but is in the Cluster. Besides New Tuscany, I mean.

Regards,

Rob
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Re: Defense of Lynx, the system
Post by saber964   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:21 pm

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Theemile wrote:
saber964 wrote:
Lynx was a 'member' of the Tallbot Cluster it just happened to be the closest system to the termanus. According to RFC Lynx basically sent back the request for annexation with the HMS Harvest Joy when she returned to Manticore. Also Lynx only beat out the rest of the cluster as a member of the SEM by a few months, as a member of the OSKM.


Actually, it was a bit longer than that - the entire book of Shadows of Saganami took place while the TQ was arguing about the terms of which they wanted to request annexation. The agreement and publicite to request to join the SKM did happen a just a few months after the Lynx Terminus (at which time the SKM said "cool" and sent Baroness Medusa and Adm Kumulo to shepard things along), but as of the end of SoSag, they still hadn't joined. The Battle of Monica brought the debates to a screeching halt, and they joined soon after.

So While Lynx joined in 1917 or 1918, the rest of the cluster didn't until late 1920/ early 1921. (sorry, don't remember exact dates)

IIRC lynx joined the OSKM in late 1919 PD. The TC became the TQ formally and the SKM became the SEM on Jan 11 1921.
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Re: Defense of Lynx, the system
Post by SWM   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:55 pm

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saber964 wrote:IIRC lynx joined the OSKM in late 1919 PD. The TC became the TQ formally and the SKM became the SEM on Jan 11 1921.

That matches what I've found. The Lynx Terminus was explored after Honor deployed to Silesia (July 27, 1919). Lynx was officially annexed as part of the Star Kingdom before Operation Thunderbolt (November 10, 1919). As a result of enthusiasm for making Lynx part of the Star Kingdom, the High Ridge government started putting out feelers to the systems in the Talbott Cluster about protectorate status or even membership. In fact, rumors of the annexation were part of the argument on Haven in favor of reopening the war; it made Manticore appear to be expansionist. But it took a long time for the Talbott Cluster to join. The Timeline in the Pearls confirms the Talbott Cluster officially joined on January 11, 1921.
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Re: Defense of Lynx, the system
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:21 pm

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SWM wrote:
saber964 wrote:IIRC lynx joined the OSKM in late 1919 PD. The TC became the TQ formally and the SKM became the SEM on Jan 11 1921.

That matches what I've found. The Lynx Terminus was explored after Honor deployed to Silesia (July 27, 1919). Lynx was officially annexed as part of the Star Kingdom before Operation Thunderbolt (November 10, 1919). As a result of enthusiasm for making Lynx part of the Star Kingdom, the High Ridge government started putting out feelers to the systems in the Talbott Cluster about protectorate status or even membership. In fact, rumors of the annexation were part of the argument on Haven in favor of reopening the war; it made Manticore appear to be expansionist. But it took a long time for the Talbott Cluster to join. The Timeline in the Pearls confirms the Talbott Cluster officially joined on January 11, 1921.



I don't think the HR government put out any "feelers", although Descrois would have favored it. But neither High Ridge nor Janacek expressed much interest, and New Kiev would've had kittens.

The annexation was entirely Van Dort's idea; it stalled when Tonkovic and other realized what they were in for. Until Monica, and the OFS threat went from "someday" to "right now".

Regards,

Rob
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Re: Defense of Lynx, the system
Post by SWM   » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:14 pm

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
I don't think the HR government put out any "feelers", although Descrois would have favored it. But neither High Ridge nor Janacek expressed much interest, and New Kiev would've had kittens.

The annexation was entirely Van Dort's idea; it stalled when Tonkovic and other realized what they were in for. Until Monica, and the OFS threat went from "someday" to "right now".

Regards,

Rob

Quoting from Chapter 36 of War of Honor, not long after the ship has come back from exploring the Lynx Terminus:
War of Honor wrote:"There's undoubtedly something to that," he conceded. "But what, exactly, are you suggesting, Elaine? That we extend the same sort of commercial relationship we have with Grayson to Lynx and the rest of the Talbott Cluster?"
"No," she said. "I'm suggesting that we go further than that."
"Further?" Janacek asked suspiciously.
"Precisely." She shrugged. "We've just agreed that our mere presence in the region is going to create problems for us where the Sollies are concerned. So I don't see any reason to be particularly careful of their exquisite sensibilities. But what I do see is an entire cluster of star systems, most of whom would much prefer to find themselves in our custody rather than ending up as Solly protectorates under the compassionate management of the OFS. And we're also looking at a domestic situation in which public opinion has found itself whipsawed between its negative reaction to the combination of the Havenites' new naval units and their new, more confrontational attitude, on the one hand, and the excitement and enthusiasm Harvest Joy's voyage has whipped up, on the other. What I see here is an opportunity for us to take the lead in exploring the possibility of offering the Talbott Cluster's star systems some sort of protectorate status—or even actual membership in the Star Kingdom."

Then the Haven government discusses the rumors they've heard:
"Well, to be equally honest, I can't say positively that it isn't. On the other hand, that may be because there's a sound basis for my feelings. I agree that annexation of the terminus system itself would represent no more than a continuation of their long-term security policies. But we're not talking just about that star system. We're also talking about Lynx and, quite possibly, the other inhabited star systems of the Talbott Cluster. All seventeen of them. That's an enormous jump from annexing a single star system populated solely by primitive aliens like Basilisk, or even a strategically vital star system whose long-established population asked to be annexed, like Trevor's Star."

and later in Chapter 38:
"By and large," the Prime Minister agreed. "The number of people who say they believe there's an immediate military threat from Haven has dropped almost another full percentage point. Approval for the annexation of Lynx is holding steady at almost eighty-five percent. For that matter, those who say they would approve the annexation of the entire Talbott Cluster are up above seventy percent. But those who anticipate the successful negotiation of a formal peace treaty with Haven have dropped another half percentage point. This—" he waved a hand at the note "—is only going to make that worse."

It is clear that they did indeed put out some feelers, at the very least.
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Re: Defense of Lynx, the system
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:28 pm

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SWM wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
I don't think the HR government put out any "feelers", although Descrois would have favored it. But neither High Ridge nor Janacek expressed much interest, and New Kiev would've had kittens.

The annexation was entirely Van Dort's idea; it stalled when Tonkovic and other realized what they were in for. Until Monica, and the OFS threat went from "someday" to "right now".

Regards,

Rob

Quoting from Chapter 36 of War of Honor, not long after the ship has come back from exploring the Lynx Terminus:
War of Honor wrote:"There's undoubtedly something to that," he conceded. "But what, exactly, are you suggesting, Elaine? That we extend the same sort of commercial relationship we have with Grayson to Lynx and the rest of the Talbott Cluster?"
"No," she said. "I'm suggesting that we go further than that."
"Further?" Janacek asked suspiciously.
"Precisely." She shrugged. "We've just agreed that our mere presence in the region is going to create problems for us where the Sollies are concerned. So I don't see any reason to be particularly careful of their exquisite sensibilities. But what I do see is an entire cluster of star systems, most of whom would much prefer to find themselves in our custody rather than ending up as Solly protectorates under the compassionate management of the OFS. And we're also looking at a domestic situation in which public opinion has found itself whipsawed between its negative reaction to the combination of the Havenites' new naval units and their new, more confrontational attitude, on the one hand, and the excitement and enthusiasm Harvest Joy's voyage has whipped up, on the other. What I see here is an opportunity for us to take the lead in exploring the possibility of offering the Talbott Cluster's star systems some sort of protectorate status—or even actual membership in the Star Kingdom."

Then the Haven government discusses the rumors they've heard:
"Well, to be equally honest, I can't say positively that it isn't. On the other hand, that may be because there's a sound basis for my feelings. I agree that annexation of the terminus system itself would represent no more than a continuation of their long-term security policies. But we're not talking just about that star system. We're also talking about Lynx and, quite possibly, the other inhabited star systems of the Talbott Cluster. All seventeen of them. That's an enormous jump from annexing a single star system populated solely by primitive aliens like Basilisk, or even a strategically vital star system whose long-established population asked to be annexed, like Trevor's Star."

and later in Chapter 38:
"By and large," the Prime Minister agreed. "The number of people who say they believe there's an immediate military threat from Haven has dropped almost another full percentage point. Approval for the annexation of Lynx is holding steady at almost eighty-five percent. For that matter, those who say they would approve the annexation of the entire Talbott Cluster are up above seventy percent. But those who anticipate the successful negotiation of a formal peace treaty with Haven have dropped another half percentage point. This—" he waved a hand at the note "—is only going to make that worse."

It is clear that they did indeed put out some feelers, at the very least.


SWM, thanks for the quotes, BUT I do disagree.

the first quote is why I said Descroix would favor it (you left off Janacek's reaction, and New Kiev wasn't present).

The second and third quotes could well be AFTER they have already received the request for annexation; it doesn't show me anywhere that High Ridge had anything to do with generating that initial request. Of course, that is just my interpretation, but I got the impression in SoSag that Van Dort organized the plebescite on his own, immediately and at his own expense.

YMMV, as always.

Regards,

Rob
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Re: Defense of Lynx, the system
Post by SWM   » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:40 pm

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:SWM, thanks for the quotes, BUT I do disagree.

the first quote is why I said Descroix would favor it (you left off Janacek's reaction, and New Kiev wasn't present).

The second and third quotes could well be AFTER they have already received the request for annexation; it doesn't show me anywhere that High Ridge had anything to do with generating that initial request. Of course, that is just my interpretation, but I got the impression in SoSag that Van Dort organized the plebescite on his own, immediately and at his own expense.

YMMV, as always.

Regards,

Rob

The second quote comes from later in the same chapter as the first quote (just a few paragraphs later, actually), and appears to a discussion about intel sent from Manticore to Haven just two weeks after the Lynx Terminus was explored. It takes more than two weeks to get from the Lynx Terminus to Spindle and back. The fact that there are polls about it suggests that someone put out feelers. There is no mention of a request from the Talbott Cluster until Chapter 56, twenty chapters later.
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Re: Defense of Lynx, the system
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:10 pm

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SWM wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:SWM, thanks for the quotes, BUT I do disagree.

the first quote is why I said Descroix would favor it (you left off Janacek's reaction, and New Kiev wasn't present).

The second and third quotes could well be AFTER they have already received the request for annexation; it doesn't show me anywhere that High Ridge had anything to do with generating that initial request. Of course, that is just my interpretation, but I got the impression in SoSag that Van Dort organized the plebescite on his own, immediately and at his own expense.

YMMV, as always.

Regards,

Rob

The second quote comes from later in the same chapter as the first quote (just a few paragraphs later, actually), and appears to a discussion about intel sent from Manticore to Haven just two weeks after the Lynx Terminus was explored. It takes more than two weeks to get from the Lynx Terminus to Spindle and back. The fact that there are polls about it suggests that someone put out feelers. There is no mention of a request from the Talbott Cluster until Chapter 56, twenty chapters later.

They couldn't have gotten a to local dispatch boat from Lynx to Spindle and back in that short a timeframe.

So, it was more likely just speculation in the press, not any official government statement; two weeks isn't even enough time to send a Manti dispatch boat one way to the farther systems.

Probably an argument from "in the fire" whatever the the talking headshow was called.

Rob

edit a typo
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Re: Defense of Lynx, the system
Post by SWM   » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:11 pm

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
SWM wrote:The second quote comes from later in the same chapter as the first quote (just a few paragraphs later, actually), and appears to a discussion about intel sent from Manticore to Haven just two weeks after the Lynx Terminus was explored. It takes more than two weeks to get from the Lynx Terminus to Spindle and back. The fact that there are polls about it suggests that someone put out feelers. There is no mention of a request from the Talbott Cluster until Chapter 56, twenty chapters later.

They couldn't have gotten a to local dispatch boat from Lynx to Spindle and back in that short a timeframe.

So, it was more likely just speculation in the press, not any official government statement; two weeks isn't even enough time to send a Manti dispatch boat one way to the farther systems.

Probably an argument from "in the fire" whatever the the talking headshow was called.

Rob

edit a typo

What I'm trying to say is that those arguments on In the Fire and polls are often triggered by ideas floated by members of the government, on one side or the other. I'm not saying that they had already floated the idea to the Talbott Cluster and heard back from them--I'm saying someone had started laying the groundwork for it.
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