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HFQ Official Snippet #28

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #28
Post by n7axw   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:18 am

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tootall wrote:Couple- three things:
1) From the language in this snipe, it sure sounds like Bahrnabai Wyrhsym isn't going to be able to reinforce or retreat because of his soldiers poor equipment. BGV is going to capture his army.
2) By waiting to get to Kaitswyrth until AFTER he gets his replacements and reinforcements, they seem to be trying to destroy the two AoGod armies with any experience. (Wyrhsym's veterans- Kaitswyrth's veterans -his rearmed pikemen, the best of the two border states armies)-Not defeat them -surround and destroy them.
Recall the scene way back in "Reef" when Black Water realizes he's in trouble, and thinks to himself:
"You wanted to kill as many as possible of Haarahld's trained seamen....Now Cableb's in position to do that to you."
I submit that's what the allies are trying to do in this campaign-take out all the experienced troops, their NCOs, and their officers.
3) And that is why I don't believe they will let the most experienced troops of all- Ahlverez's Dohlarians- escape.


Actually, if Ahlverez manages to get his people back to Dohlar at all, there won't be very many of them left and what there will be of them will be weak and undernourished to the point where simple reorganizing them won't be an option.

What I think is going on here is not so much aimed at killing experienced troops as it is destroying the Temple armies by combat action that either kills, captures or scatters those armies to an extent where their organization is shattered and broken up and disolved.

As for Dohlar, I think Dohlar will be dealt with mostly from the sea, probably with the occupation of Gorath which will probably knock Dohlar out of the war.

Don
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #28
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:26 am

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Hi all,

The reference at the snippet's end of the to a store's "air break vestibule" is fascinating as a clue to the level of general architectural sophistication regarding Safehold insulating building interiors.

Isn't that concept less than a hundred years old now?

We've had references to double glazed type windows for quite a while, but this is even further evidence.

This leads me to wonder how soon before Hector buys a relatively small steam engine from Charis to power an air conditioning system on the palace top floor to cool things down for Irys especially during her pregnancy, including reducing the humidity, the remodeling required might include a conveyor belt for the coal and ice, NTM an elevator for people, perhaps between them and the connecting admin wing.

Given the vast public curiosity and captivation in their new royal couple, and the huge private interest in air conditioning in Corisande once they see it working ought to be quite a wedge opening for new tech, new thinking and creating their own branch of the Imperial College, while earning brownie points for Hector in his devotion to Irys.

Once Clyntahn finds out, will he ban or proscribe air conditioning as too sinfully indulgent? ;)

Imagine, another have-to-have item with a huge world market that Charis will again dominate.

It'd be interesting to see what kind of substitute materials and designs other states attempting not to buy Charisian after the war would try in order to match Charisian quality.

Which all furthers Merlin's plan, of course. 8-)

L
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #28
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:45 am

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Hi PeterZ,

Permit me a few comments, if you please. ;)

First of all, I don't see the Go4 ordering the MHoG to dig and fortify this spring, not before they ever meet the allied armies, especially when they still outnumber them by ~3-1, despite the obvious qualitative differences, NTM when they are so determined to regain the momentum after their winter defeats, nor will the book stretch through the fall let alone all winter.

At this rate I'll be surprised if we reach October. ;)

Then there's the question of when, where and what would they fortify; RFC made it clear years ago that Haven is too huge for any WWI western front bogged down trench warfare; it's too easy to flank any such fortifications.

Story-wise, I don't see the MHoG surviving as a military force, they're supposed to attack and be variously ambushed, the bulk of the serfs become as POW's before they learn how they've been lied to etc.

Now you're right in that the timing is indeed critical, but for the Go4; because it will be after BGV destroys Wyrshym, so the Go4 will split the MHoGatA into two sub armies; one being Army Group North [to replace Wyrshym], the other is Army Group South [to replace Harless's AoS], each at around 750-800,000 troops, because they think Kaitswyrth is now strong enough to meet the alliance Army of the Daivyn [they don't know Symkyn by name yet] on equal or better terms, so they don't need an Army Group Center.

Imagine when they discover they do! :D

Given their man-to-man combat power is 3-4 if not 5 times Kaitswyrth's, plus that they expect to outnumber him [a rather unique situation so far for the allied armies], he and his army are 'dead men walking', regardless of any glitches RFC puts in for authenticity's sake.

Post battle, keep in mind you've confused and reversed where DE and EHM are going; EHM is going north while DE stays south of the Daivyn.

May means that the MHoG's AGS could have taken the Sabana river to the coast, moved along the coast to Dairnyth and the Alyksberg canal, possibly as far as the Seridahn River in those 50-60 days thanks to the warmer weather of it's theater of operations, while AGN may not reach Northern Siddarmark until mid-late May when they find out about Kaitswyrth.

AGS is the closest, NTM in the best position to respond quickly, but sending a replacement army, perhaps a third of AGS back then up the Fairmyn River would take a month to get to the Charayn Canal, way too long; so since I suspect the MHoG will have orders to destroy the alliance armies wherever they are, the rest of AGS may move north through the Snake Mountains [rather than marching east or south through lands still wrecked from last year], hoping to get well behind the [assumed] westward moving alliance armies and cut the Daivyn River behind them before they realise its so close to the river when they're too far away.

Of course, the alliance armies are more than ready to meet them and have further surprises in store [like using their own much better rockets first] that demolish the AGS, leaving the south open for the allies to exploit; this is where Dohlar wisely decides to seek terms before armies that destroyed the MHoG's AGS, that was several times larger than the largest Dohlaran army ever, advance into Dohlar proper.

So the allies are then free to march up the AGS's route south in reverse, ie up the Sabana River then west to the KotTL, which being rivers are less susceptible to any sabotage than canals, while supplied via Sharpfield, so by August they're approaching Zion from the south east.

EHM among others cut the AGN's canal supply line as I've previously posted, and BGV sails from Spinefish Bay to Temple Bay [possibly escorted by the KH VII's, no longer needed in the Gulf of Dohlar ;) ], going up the Zion tidal river in his steam powered landing craft when the book ends; and the next book [#9] fills in all the background we've missed, before the next [#10] finishes Clyntahn off and we find out WUtT - [what's under the temple] in a couple of years, instead of next year. :cry: :o :shock: ;)

L


PeterZ wrote:
n7axw wrote:It seems to me that there is an element in all of this that while it's not nevessarily time critical, still makes time somewhat important. They do need to come to grips with Kaitswryth and finish the business rather than taking the whole campaign season to do it. The same is true for BGV and the Army of the Salmahn. Both campaigns are a clearing of the deck for dealing with the Harchongese.

Don


I believe this is somewhat time sensitive. Not for coordinating against Kaitswyrth, but to lock down the canals before the GH begin moving. If you will notice the dispositions, DE is moving to position himself north of Kaitswyrth and EHM is approaching from the south. Even so, they are not the hammer to crush Kaitswyrth. That is up to Symkyns. Why?

I suspect that the approaches from the South and North are the primary dispositions the ICA will take to address the GH. High Mount approaches from the South and secures the locks along the Charayn Canal and Daivyn river. Eastshare will position blocking forces north of Aivahnstyn and send his more mobile forces to secure the North Daivyn and as far north as they can get. I suspect that BGV will get to lakeside and Sairmeet by the time DE gets to Selyk and Blufftyn.

After Kaitswyrth has been suitably dealt with EHM heads south and takes Dairnyth. Hanth kicks Rychtyr's butt back to Dohlar and follows along the Sheryl-Sheridahn. Silkiah will have either fallen or flipped to that last 50,000 troop ICA contingent from Cherayth in that August departure. Iron clads begin filtering into Salthar Bay and wreaking havoc along the Dohlar coast. The KH VIIs arrive at last as Thirsk deploys much of his forces to cover this emerging southern threat.

Sharpfield will take back Trove Island and will likely take Dragon Island too. Garvai and Windshare have to train up somewhere ;-) Sharpfield might well take one of the islands just outside Shweimouth passage as well. having bases in those four locations will pretty much let ICN steamers control the entire Gulf of Dohlar and the Gulf of Tanshar as well as their coastal cities' waterborne trade. By Fall Dohlar's navy will be toast, Gorath's throat will be bare to Sharpfield's 10'ers and Ahlvarez's army will be bottled up inside Dohlar and waiting the Siddermarkian formations that are building up as King Rahnahld sweats. Of course, the Desnar's Eastern coast will get some tender lovin' care from the new coastal ironclad class.

Now, if the GH decides to be wise and fortifies positions at Mhartynberg, St. Vyrdyn and lake City(less likely) as Brother Lynkyn manufactures his weapons, the CoGA survives the winter. I suspect that Magwair will win that argument with Clyntahn after both Kaitswyrth's and Wyrshym's forces are destroyed. Whether Clyntahn survives the Winter or not is a good question. If he does not survive, the CoGA might well sue for peace and save the Temple Lands from a vengeful Siddermarkian Army that has just witnessed the Concentration Camps and will be up to almost pre-SoS levels but better armed than the GH.

If the GH decides to attack, I just don't see them surviving as any sort of force. They won't have enough breach loaders or rockets to offset the Allies mortars and greater number of rifles. If the St. Kylman's use percussion caps, they will have the same logistics issues as the Allies have with their brass rounds. Try as I might, I don't see the GH surviving anything but defending from seriously fortified positons. They have enough rifles and men to make taking that sort of position very painful for the Allies. Painful enough that waiting until the RSA can completely rebuild and the EoC can fully equip them to ICA standards will be a very attractive proposition.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #28
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:00 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi all,

The reference at the snippet's end of the to a store's "air break vestibule" is fascinating as a clue to the level of general architectural sophistication regarding Safehold insulating building interiors.

Isn't that concept less than a hundred years old now?

We've had references to double glazed type windows for quite a while, but this is even further evidence.
I've often thought that the best way to conceptualize Safehold's technology base is: everything that they thought of that the Operation Ark command crew could give them (or let them retain/recreate), without Safehold having to use power other than from wind, water, or muscle, along with all the goodies they could genetically engineer for them, and without actually having a scientific understanding of what they were using. The result isn't going to resemble a historical era too well, since historically, understanding what you were building was kinda important, darn near necessary, and genetically engineered products aren't the products of society relying on muscle power. It's also a key to getting how Charis (and the mainland now) have been able to make such leaps technologically: their tech base and industry have been in very good shape, it's their science base that was close to non-existent.

Plus, of course, the tech base was never especially advanced in military affairs - the Ark crew hadn't any interest in providing gunpowder, for instance, feeling out implications of it was something Safehold was only working out still at a "normal" rate when Merlin showed up. Even then though, pressure cooking and plumbing at least gave them a great background for cannon casting.
This leads me to wonder how soon before Hector buys a relatively small steam engine from Charis to power an air conditioning system on the palace top floor to cool things down for Irys especially during her pregnancy, including reducing the humidity, the remodeling required might include a conveyor belt for the coal and ice, NTM an elevator for people, perhaps between them and the connecting admin wing.

Given the vast public curiosity and captivation in their new royal couple, and the huge private interest in air conditioning in Corisande once they see it working ought to be quite a wedge opening for new tech, new thinking and creating their own branch of the Imperial College, while earning brownie points for Hector in his devotion to Irys.
They do at least have automated fan systems. Better power for those would make for a nice immediate step. I must confess to an ignorance of air conditioning details that would suit a Harchong serf - how far can you get with air conditioning without blowing air over ice or having electricity and refrigerants?
Once Clyntahn finds out, will he ban or proscribe air conditioning as too sinfully indulgent? ;)
Coming from a man who never leaves the controlled environment of the Temple in a Zion winter (or spring, or fall...), declaring that "sinfully indulgent" should give the moral authority of the Temple another hit!
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #28
Post by AirTech   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:47 am

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JeffEngel wrote:
They do at least have automated fan systems. Better power for those would make for a nice immediate step. I must confess to an ignorance of air conditioning details that would suit a Harchong serf - how far can you get with air conditioning without blowing air over ice or having electricity and refrigerants?
Once Clyntahn finds out, will he ban or proscribe air conditioning as too sinfully indulgent? ;)
Coming from a man who never leaves the controlled environment of the Temple in a Zion winter (or spring, or fall...), declaring that "sinfully indulgent" should give the moral authority of the Temple another hit![/quote]

We haven't heard of a proscription against refrigerants - ammonia is quite capable of generating freezing temperatures and the earliest freezer ships predate electricity transmission by a fair few decades. Which raises industrial uses for refrigeration - ice cream anyone?
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #28
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:21 am

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JeffEngel wrote:I've often thought that the best way to conceptualize Safehold's technology base is: everything that they thought of that the Operation Ark command crew could give them (or let them retain/recreate), without Safehold having to use power other than from wind, water, or muscle, along with all the goodies they could genetically engineer for them, and without actually having a scientific understanding of what they were using. The result isn't going to resemble a historical era too well, ...


I'm currently reading The Change: Tales of Downfall and Rebirth edited by S. M. Stirling; short stories by various authors in Stirling's "Change" or "Emberverse." The premise of that series is a sudden Change in the rules of physics, such that electricity, internal combustion, steam, and gunpowder, (and other explosives) simply don't work.

It strikes me that the universe of the Change is what Langhorne wanted and, up to the bribed approval of black powder, achieved. In Stirling's universe, survivors remember how to do things with "wind, water, and muscle" or figure out how to make do without "modern conveniences."

The result is a mashup of old and new technologies within the limits of new physics that closely resembles pre-Merlin Safehold.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #28
Post by dwileye13   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:22 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi all,

The reference at the snippet's end of the to a store's "air break vestibule" is fascinating as a clue to the level of general architectural sophistication regarding Safehold insulating building interiors.

Isn't that concept less than a hundred years old now?

We've had references to double glazed type windows for quite a while, but this is even further evidence.

This leads me to wonder how soon before Hector buys a relatively small steam engine from Charis to power an air conditioning system on the palace top floor to cool things down for Irys especially during her pregnancy, including reducing the humidity, the remodeling required might include a conveyor belt for the coal and ice, NTM an elevator for people, perhaps between them and the connecting admin wing.

Given the vast public curiosity and captivation in their new royal couple, and the huge private interest in air conditioning in Corisande once they see it working ought to be quite a wedge opening for new tech, new thinking and creating their own branch of the Imperial College, while earning brownie points for Hector in his devotion to Irys.

Once Clyntahn finds out, will he ban or proscribe air conditioning as too sinfully indulgent? ;)

Imagine, another have-to-have item with a huge world market that Charis will again dominate.

It'd be interesting to see what kind of substitute materials and designs other states attempting not to buy Charisian after the war would try in order to match Charisian quality.

Which all furthers Merlin's plan, of course. 8-)

L

That would be quite Hypocritical of Clyntahn seeing as he lives in Temple provided AirCon . . . gratis of course. Once capitulation of the CoGA occurs, Pilgrims should be required to walk the Temple and witness the Technology that the Vicars have been living within.
I am not young enough to know everything!
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #28
Post by evilauthor   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:58 am

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JeffEngel wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi all,

The reference at the snippet's end of the to a store's "air break vestibule" is fascinating as a clue to the level of general architectural sophistication regarding Safehold insulating building interiors.

Isn't that concept less than a hundred years old now?

We've had references to double glazed type windows for quite a while, but this is even further evidence.


I've often thought that the best way to conceptualize Safehold's technology base is: everything that they thought of that the Operation Ark command crew could give them (or let them retain/recreate), without Safehold having to use power other than from wind, water, or muscle, along with all the goodies they could genetically engineer for them, and without actually having a scientific understanding of what they were using. The result isn't going to resemble a historical era too well, since historically, understanding what you were building was kinda important, darn near necessary, and genetically engineered products aren't the products of society relying on muscle power. It's also a key to getting how Charis (and the mainland now) have been able to make such leaps technologically: their tech base and industry have been in very good shape, it's their science base that was close to non-existent.


Yeah, if an "air break vestibule" is what I think it is (essentially a small room serving as an "airlock" in a building or tent to minimize heat loss), then it's well within Safehold's ability to build without violating the Proscriptions. Odds are the ArchAngels gave it to the original Adams and Eves, perhaps even specified in the Writ that it be included in any building and tent large enough to have it when for housing in winter and cold weather climates.

Hell, it wouldn't surprise me that everything needed to survive and operate in cold weather has been specified in the Writ. It's just that until Charis' industrial revolution, no one could afford to equip and supply large quantities of troops to operate safely in snow bound weather.
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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #28
Post by Louis R   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:30 pm

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Those who are not students of the subject find it difficult to grasp just how complete the disconnect between science and technology was before the mid-20th century. I see that often in comments here, along with the equally false assumption that technology and its evolution are a unified whole: if you don't have A, you can't possibly have B because B is 'more advanced'. In fact, the general rule is that B appeared later than A because the first 3 guys [at least 5 or whom are unrecorded] who thought of B couldn't see any earthly use for it. Then you get the fact that the next 8 were too busy to pursue it, and another half dozen didn't quite get it to work reliably, while A, when it was thought of a century later, got lucky and was sorted out in a generation.

While there is often a necessary order for the appearance of related technologies, it's not always the case, and even when it is, you can be told how to do things without knowing anything about their precursors. Which, if those precursors might lead you into unwelcome lines of endeavour, the people telling you how will be quite happy to arrange.

When there isn't a direct relationship, when tech A doesn't 'enable' B, order of development, if not actually random, will be tied to opportunity: need encountering suitable material encountering whatever it takes to learn to shape material to need. Nobody knows how either flint knapping or metal smelting were invented [there's heaps of speculation, but _no_ firm knownledge], but when you look at them you can see that there's no reason in principle why protohumans couldn't have gone from charred sticks to metal spear points. Other, that is, than the fact that native copper isn't lying around in nearly as many places as flint nodules.

JeffEngel wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi all,

The reference at the snippet's end of the to a store's "air break vestibule" is fascinating as a clue to the level of general architectural sophistication regarding Safehold insulating building interiors.

Isn't that concept less than a hundred years old now?

We've had references to double glazed type windows for quite a while, but this is even further evidence.
I've often thought that the best way to conceptualize Safehold's technology base is: everything that they thought of that the Operation Ark command crew could give them (or let them retain/recreate), without Safehold having to use power other than from wind, water, or muscle, along with all the goodies they could genetically engineer for them, and without actually having a scientific understanding of what they were using. The result isn't going to resemble a historical era too well, since historically, understanding what you were building was kinda important, darn near necessary, and genetically engineered products aren't the products of society relying on muscle power. It's also a key to getting how Charis (and the mainland now) have been able to make such leaps technologically: their tech base and industry have been in very good shape, it's their science base that was close to non-existent.

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Re: HFQ Official Snippet #28
Post by n7axw   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:43 pm

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Louis R wrote:Those who are not students of the subject find it difficult to grasp just how complete the disconnect between science and technology was before the mid-20th century. I see that often in comments here, along with the equally false assumption that technology and its evolution are a unified whole: if you don't have A, you can't possibly have B because B is 'more advanced'. In fact, the general rule is that B appeared later than A because the first 3 guys [at least 5 or whom are unrecorded] who thought of B couldn't see any earthly use for it. Then you get the fact that the next 8 were too busy to pursue it, and another half dozen didn't quite get it to work reliably, while A, when it was thought of a century later, got lucky and was sorted out in a generation.

While there is often a necessary order for the appearance of related technologies, it's not always the case, and even when it is, you can be told how to do things without knowing anything about their precursors. Which, if those precursors might lead you into unwelcome lines of endeavour, the people telling you how will be quite happy to arrange.

When there isn't a direct relationship, when tech A doesn't 'enable' B, order of development, if not actually random, will be tied to opportunity: need encountering suitable material encountering whatever it takes to learn to shape material to need. Nobody knows how either flint knapping or metal smelting were invented [there's heaps of speculation, but _no_ firm knownledge], but when you look at them you can see that there's no reason in principle why protohumans couldn't have gone from charred sticks to metal spear points. Other, that is, than the fact that native copper isn't lying around in nearly as many places as flint nodules.




Very well said. Both science and technology advance as the knowledge base deepens. But that does not mean that specific ideas and applications as they feed upon one another progress in a straight line manner.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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