The Maya Crisis...

Relax wrote:

kzt wrote:The transstellars are not HQ in the verge. That's a tiny little piece of most of them. Their leadership and stockholders live in the core.

Yup, just like today, with many businesses manufacturing facilities in 2nd and 3rd world nations, if war ever breaks out such businesses vanish without a trace as all of those PHYSICAL assets get nationalized and the "leadership" and stockholders wealth vanishes. Ah, short sighted greedy people... they never change and never learn and this world and universe is full of them.

Moving their legal fictions around while preserving power relations isn't much trouble. Convert "HQ" into "a branch office"; establish a PO box or the equivalent as an HQ wherever the tax laws are favorable (Erewhon, perhaps, or an otherwise uninhabited, unclaimed system - "the Cayman Planets", for instance); let your puppet Verge system presidents "nationalize" your holdings - then get them back on a "lease"; hire "lost" Frontier Fleet or surplus SDF forces to keep your Verge holdings in line in space and let your tame planetary security forces keep the proles in line on the ground.

And if OFS threatens to jack up service fees, let them know that it's likely to cause outright secession out there and you certainly can't advise it.

They do need to be savvier than a lot of businesses that don't recognize that they need to control the force to preserve "contracts" that the other party has no good reason to like. But that's not a high bar, and the transtellars have the means.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

SWM wrote:I don't believe the League can issue Treasury notes. The League is prohibited from borrowing money like that, and they are not permitted to levy direct taxes. Their sources of revenue are very strictly limited by the Constitution. According to RFC, the only sources of funds for the Solarian League government are: "import duties, customs fees, direct assessments for naval spending, etc., plus additional voluntary contributions." Extorting money from the transstellars is possible, of course.
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/200/1

I don't know about T-notes, but they were issuing bonds for Barregos, and wanted to issue more for Erewhon--so long as they got to do the bookkeeping.

Rob

That's the local government, not the Solarian League government. The members of the Solarian League restricted the League's cash flow, but not their own.

SWM wrote:That's the local government, not the Solarian League government. The members of the Solarian League restricted the League's cash flow, but not their own.

And that's the key point. The League has a lot of parallels to the US under the Articles of Confederation - a loose alliance of established entities, with a federal-level structure that's deliberately hamstrung by underfunding and a tortuous decision-making process, all of which are intended to prevent it from becoming 'tyrannical' and which actually prevent it from functioning at all. In the US, the idea was abandoned in favour of the Constitution within a decade of independence - in the League, it lasted long enough for the bureaucracy to take over, and the sheer wealth of the League's members meant that the tiny revenue streams allowed to the federal government were enough to keep it functioning. Then things like protectorate 'service' fees kicked in and the process became self-sustaining.

Dafmeister wrote: Then things like protectorate 'service' fees kicked in and the process became self-sustaining.

That reminds me -

Kolokoltsov was musing about the revenue issues, with trade fees gutted by Lacoon 1/2 and the protectorate service fees both endangered and their only practical option for increasing revenue. He noted that it was the protectorate system that got them into the mess in the first place, with the Monica affair and the general creep toward Talbott.

So the League's Constitution set in motion the League government's corruption and that slow imperialism - if it was going to be a robust government, it had no choice but to proceed in extralegal fashion. But the protectorates slowly turn into established League systems, at which point (I take it) they're no longer sources of those service fees and all the League government gets out of them is the tiny bit from their interstellar trade. So they've got compelling reason to keep spreading out, keep making enemies, keep inspiring at most tepid toleration and at worst sheer disgust inside and outside the League.

The timing means that this was going on well before the Alignment showed up, but it could still have been a model for the DuQuesne Plan for Haven. Not in the sense of Haven thinking it was a good idea - heck, if anything, Haven benefited from people fleeing this crap out of the League! - but for the Alignment turning Haven into a monster with the DuQuesne Plan. The BLS and compromised education system meant that Haven, much as it theoretically could tax freely, still would have a hobbled net revenue stream, unless it went and seized other systems. Those systems, in turn, got the same crippled education system and BLS - few jobs, not much consumer spending, not much compelling reason to get into the jobs, not much training to do any jobs worth more than the BLS in salary anyway - forcing the People's Republic to keep expanding.

It was - probably by design - a lot faster than the League's growth, but the parallels are striking.

JeffEngel wrote:They do need to be savvier than a lot of businesses that don't recognize that they need to control the force to preserve "contracts" that the other party has no good reason to like. But that's not a high bar, and the transtellars have the means.

I think it's frequently overlooked that the corrupt trans-stellars involved in exploiting the verge and the Alignment front companies are not normal League businesses. Relatively honest businesses mostly interested in doing there own thing and making a relatively honest profit don't have much affect on the story, so we don't read about them, but I strongly suspect the seriously bad actors in the League business community are a tiny percentage of the League's economy overall.

And I strongly suspect what normal trans-stellars want, mostly, is to get things back as close to 'normal' as they can get, with their goods moving through the wormhole network at reasonable rates. And if it means the League has to go to return to that laudable state, well, it sucks to be the League.

drothgery wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:They do need to be savvier than a lot of businesses that don't recognize that they need to control the force to preserve "contracts" that the other party has no good reason to like. But that's not a high bar, and the transtellars have the means.

I think it's frequently overlooked that the corrupt trans-stellars involved in exploiting the verge and the Alignment front companies are not normal League businesses. Relatively honest businesses mostly interested in doing there own thing and making a relatively honest profit don't have much affect on the story, so we don't read about them, but I strongly suspect the seriously bad actors in the League business community are a tiny percentage of the League's economy overall.

And I strongly suspect what normal trans-stellars want, mostly, is to get things back as close to 'normal' as they can get, with their goods moving through the wormhole network at reasonable rates. And if it means the League has to go to return to that laudable state, well, it sucks to be the League.

Fair enough. So picture a lot of semi-honest transtellars with no loyalty to the League that want whatever a return to normalcy will require, and a relatively small number of, well, would-fit-in-on-Mesa-well unindicted criminal organizations that are technically transtellars, also with no loyalty to the League, who will do whatever it takes to continue "business" as usual, League or no League.

JeffEngel wrote:

drothgery wrote:I think it's frequently overlooked that the corrupt trans-stellars involved in exploiting the verge and the Alignment front companies are not normal League businesses. Relatively honest businesses mostly interested in doing there own thing and making a relatively honest profit don't have much affect on the story, so we don't read about them, but I strongly suspect the seriously bad actors in the League business community are a tiny percentage of the League's economy overall.

And I strongly suspect what normal trans-stellars want, mostly, is to get things back as close to 'normal' as they can get, with their goods moving through the wormhole network at reasonable rates. And if it means the League has to go to return to that laudable state, well, it sucks to be the League.

Fair enough. So picture a lot of semi-honest transtellars with no loyalty to the League that want whatever a return to normalcy will require, and a relatively small number of, well, would-fit-in-on-Mesa-well unindicted criminal organizations that are technically transtellars, also with no loyalty to the League, who will do whatever it takes to continue "business" as usual, League or no League.

I don't even think "Corrupt" comes into it - look at Walmart, I wouldn't call the company corrupt - relatively ruthless, perhaps, but not corrupt.

A Walmart will move into a small town and offer "lower" prices - soon the Local Hardware store closes down, as does a grocery, pharmacy and a clothes shop or 2, because they can't compete on prices and their local market is so small they can't survive on the % of business they keep. After the small businesses close, their workers can't find competitive jobs with competitive wages to their former jobs, because the Walmart pays less than they were making, and is (nearly) the only shop in town. In the end, the small town economy shrinks slightly, and becomes reliant on Walmart, at the same time feeding the Walmart profit strategy.

Picture this on a planetary scale - SprallMart gets the shipping concession - and the planetary government signs a non-competitive contract with Sprallmart shipping - they get increased shipping per month at a lower shipping rate in return for the planet ONLY using Sprallmart shipping. Soon, Sprallmart is the nearly only provider of off planet goods, as their goods on their ships are cheaper than someone else's goods transshipped to their ships.

Over time, it's pricing kills multiple local industries and SprallMart invests in the local economy buying up many of the profitable local business remaining. Soon, You don't have many options but to buy Sprallmart or work for Sprallmart.

No corruption or illegal behavior here - just ruthless predatory practices.

If you do throw in corruption, it just happens easier and quicker.

JeffEngel wrote:

Relax wrote:Yup, just like today, with many businesses manufacturing facilities in 2nd and 3rd world nations, if war ever breaks out such businesses vanish without a trace as all of those PHYSICAL assets get nationalized and the "leadership" and stockholders wealth vanishes. Ah, short sighted greedy people... they never change and never learn and this world and universe is full of them.

Moving their legal fictions around while preserving power relations isn't much trouble. Convert "HQ" into "a branch office"; establish a PO box or the equivalent as an HQ wherever the tax laws are favorable (Erewhon, perhaps, or an otherwise uninhabited, unclaimed system - "the Cayman Planets", for instance); let your puppet Verge system presidents "nationalize" your holdings - then get them back on a "lease"; hire "lost" Frontier Fleet or surplus SDF forces to keep your Verge holdings in line in space and let your tame planetary security forces keep the proles in line on the ground.

And if OFS threatens to jack up service fees, let them know that it's likely to cause outright secession out there and you certainly can't advise it.

They do need to be savvier than a lot of businesses that don't recognize that they need to control the force to preserve "contracts" that the other party has no good reason to like. But that's not a high bar, and the transtellars have the means.

What the? No that is not how real life works. When your factories are nationalized, they keep making the same product and keep selling it. You, the "owner" or shareholder get nothing and no way back in. Allowing you back in would be an admission that you own something. Now if you hold the ENGINEERING and product development, then you can release a new product made in new factories you just built and actually own and redominate the marketplace, but until then, zilch.

If you want nationalized asset training look at Argentina, Venezuela, Zimbabwe. It works great for a few ~15-20 years until the machinery falls apart as they lack the engineering. The difference is that these countries credit rating went to zero when they did this. Since everything on this worls is easily communicatable distance, it does not work as you are tied to their banking system. In this case, when the Verge goes, they switch to a different banking system as the Solarian credit is soon going to be worthless. Why do you think the rest of the world is keen on developing a secondary banking system outside of western banking system?

Theemile wrote:Picture this on a planetary scale - SprallMart gets the shipping concession - and the planetary government signs a non-competitive contract with Sprallmart shipping - they get increased shipping per month at a lower shipping rate in return for the planet ONLY using Sprallmart shipping. Soon, Sprallmart is the nearly only provider of off planet goods, as their goods on their ships are cheaper than someone else's goods transshipped to their ships.

Over time, it's pricing kills multiple local industries and SprallMart invests in the local economy buying up many of the profitable local business remaining. Soon, You don't have many options but to buy Sprallmart or work for Sprallmart.

No corruption or illegal behavior here - just ruthless predatory practices.

If you do throw in corruption, it just happens easier and quicker.

Yep, if you check in Shadow of Freedom, it's sort of laid out there, on Seraphim:

So the odds were against any of them being used to keep an eye on such a dilapidated and useless stretch of the Rust Belt, as the once-thriving wasteland on Cherubim’s perimeter had come to be known. There hadn’t been anything worth worrying about out here since the transstellars like Krestor Interstellar and Mendoza of Córdoba had moved in and eliminated Seraphim’s once vibrant small-business sector. These days, either you worked as a good little helot for your out-system masters or you didn’t work at all. And God help you if you thought you could scrape up a little startup capital and try to change that situation.

Relax wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Moving their legal fictions around while preserving power relations isn't much trouble. Convert "HQ" into "a branch office"; establish a PO box or the equivalent as an HQ wherever the tax laws are favorable (Erewhon, perhaps, or an otherwise uninhabited, unclaimed system - "the Cayman Planets", for instance); let your puppet Verge system presidents "nationalize" your holdings - then get them back on a "lease"; hire "lost" Frontier Fleet or surplus SDF forces to keep your Verge holdings in line in space and let your tame planetary security forces keep the proles in line on the ground.

And if OFS threatens to jack up service fees, let them know that it's likely to cause outright secession out there and you certainly can't advise it.

They do need to be savvier than a lot of businesses that don't recognize that they need to control the force to preserve "contracts" that the other party has no good reason to like. But that's not a high bar, and the transtellars have the means.

What the? No that is not how real life works. When your factories are nationalized, they keep making the same product and keep selling it. You, the "owner" or shareholder get nothing and no way back in. Allowing you back in would be an admission that you own something. Now if you hold the ENGINEERING and product development, then you can release a new product made in new factories you just built and actually own and redominate the marketplace, but until then, zilch.

Note the scare quotes around "nationalize". A transtellar that doesn't want to burn bridges with the Core would like any figleaf they can get, and having a tame/cowed Verge government help out by making it look like they've seized the transtellar's property there gives them that. Actually losing control of it isn't anything they want, and when the Verge government IS tame or cowed, it's not what the transtellar is getting, either.