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HFQ Snippet 27[?] a

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: HFQ Snippet 27[?] a
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:07 pm

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Louis R wrote:Not as different as all that, when it comes to strategic movement of armies. The ICA and the AoG march on the same thing. Their stomachs. The ICA has a definite edge in speed because it has a real support echelon, but it probably doesn't come to more that 5-10% - and they're not going to be moving those supply wagons and field kitchens across any ground the AoG can't cross, because they've got the same critters pulling them.

Come to think of it, they may not even be that much faster, given the way the Charisians were caught out by how fast the AoG moved once it crossed the border. I suspect that away from a canal line the ICA does have an edge, and they simply hadn't taken the potential value of canals into account, but they may not.

What did catch the AoG out was a completely alien _tactical_ doctrine, combined with a speed of movement at sea that seems to have been totally misread. The were running into the ICA sooner and in greater strength than expected, and didn't have a clue what to do with it when they did.



I think what did catch Merlin by surprise was how fast Temple armies could move when compared to Terra armies in the same stage of development on earth. Those dragons made a real difference. For the protector and his advisors, they were suprised by the Temple's competence, particularly in managing logistics which also facilitated speed of movement.

The allies primary advantage lies in its corp organization which permits movement along parallel routes rather than everybody trying to move along the same trail at the same time. Then, of course you have the Chisholmian tradition of training for both winter movement and fighting along with being able to properly equip their troops for winter survival.
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Re: HFQ Snippet 27[?] a
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:25 pm

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n7axw wrote:...Then, of course you have the Chisholmian tradition of training for both winter movement and fighting along with being able to properly equip their troops for winter survival.


Unfortunately, that winter training advantage is about to go away for the spring and summer. We will have to see if the Corps organization helps overcome "Mud Season" as well as it adapted to winter warfare.
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Re: HFQ Snippet 27[?] a
Post by OrlandoNative   » Sat Jul 25, 2015 6:40 pm

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n7axw wrote:I think what did catch Merlin by surprise was how fast Temple armies could move when compared to Terra armies in the same stage of development on earth. Those dragons made a real difference. For the protector and his advisors, they were suprised by the Temple's competence, particularly in managing logistics which also facilitated speed of movement.

It would seem from the storyline that most of the Temple army logistics were concentrated around canal travel. Not "Dragon travel", per se - though the dragons no doubt helped tow the barges on the canals.

You've got to remember that there's one *MAJOR* difference between Safehold and an analogous technological period on Earth. Namely, transportation mechanisms are *sacred* on Safehold. The canals, the roads, they're all enjoined by the Writ to be properly maintained and extended whenever possible. There was no Terran equivalent. Closest *might* have been to the roads and aqueducts of the Romans. Roman armies could move fairly quickly within the boundaries of the Empire. Outside, without the transportation infrastructure they moved much slower.

Siddarmark wasn't an isolated political entity, it was connected to the same road and canal system as the rest of the mainland states. The Sword of Schuler didn't destroy canals and roads, even if it *did* "depopulate" large sections of the outlying provinces. So until the AOG actually reached locations where the loyal Siddarmarkan's held sway, there was really nothing to slow them down. Indeed, the folks on horseback, and even on foot, got way ahead of most of their logistical support several times.

What really surprised the Protector, was the *timing* of the Sword of Schuler, and the fact that the AOG armies were ready to march soon after. However, given that the timing was basically set by a despot who couldn't care less about how many men his own side lost, whether to fighting, weather, or whatever, it really couldn't be any other way. If the rabblerousers and the soldiers *didn't* jump when he said, the Inquisition would have killed them just as dead as any Siddarmark pike, sword, or bullet.

When you've only really got one choice, making a decision isn't all that difficult.
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Re: HFQ Snippet 27[?] a
Post by EngineerBob   » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:33 pm

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(My apologies for the length of this post. I couldn’t thing of a good way to split it up.)

I've read some speculation that ICA will develop machine guns for use against AoG. I *think* machine guns are still a little beyond Charisan technology, but Gatling guns should be well within it. Given revolvers and cartridges, it shouldn't be long before someone comes up with the idea. (Or Howsmyn makes some “suggestions” to Mahldyn, his armaments genius, that result in the same thing.)

Possibly equally important would be the development of barbed wire. Charis and its allies already have all the technology they need for that. All they need is for someone to come up with the idea. And given that Safehold’s ecology includes plants somewhat similar to barbed wire (Charis’s dagger thorns), I could see some sergeant telling his section “If we only had dagger thorns here, it would be damn near impossible for the Temple Boys to get us out.” “You know, Sarge, we could MAKE something like dagger thorns! My brother-in-law works in the wire-drawing factory at the Delthak Works, and he’s written to me about how they have to be careful cutting the wires as they come off the machine. They’re sharp as hell, and he says more than person has been cut by the end when they were careless. What if we took a length of wire, say, six inches long, and wrapped it around a long length of wire? Put the thorns every foot or so, and they’d play hell with anyone trying to get through it. Especially if we put three or four wires above each other, starting just above the ground and maybe a foot apart!”

OK, so now you’d have Gatling guns, barbed wire, land mines, and long-range artillery. Getting close to WWI technology, right? On the AoG side, you’ve got the Harchongese coming down from the north. They slam into the Gatling guns, barbed wire, land mines, and artillery of the ICA and their Siddamarkian allies. The Harchongese take heavy casualties, just like the British, French, and German armies did, especially in the early days of WWI. But Harchongelse political and military leaders don’t really care, do they? After all, it’s mostly just the damn peasants who are dying. Not someone who matters.

And this is where Nahrmahn’s sneakiness comes into play. Did you know the French army mutinied late in WWI? (1917, to be precise.) (I'll bet Nahrmahn knows this. If not, Owl could bring it to his attention.) And this was an army that liked, or at least generally respected its political and military leaders; one that wasn’t treated as slaves. Nimue takes advantage of her size (“… a bit short for a man, but close enough to the norm that you could pass for whichever you choose.”) and ability to change her appearance to impersonate Harchongese soldiers (probably mainly privates and PFCs – there are so many, they’re anonymous) and begins spreading defeatism and sedition among the ranks. The average Harchongese soldier probably hates and fears his officers – it’s only his loyalty to Mother Church, and the fear of discipline, that keeps him going forward. What happens when the Harchongese soldiers fear ICA’s weapons as much as their own MPs and military discipline? At the same time, Nimue is going “We’re dying by the hundreds – thousands! And the Colonel doesn’t care. Does it look like he’s missed any meals? When was the last time any of us had a full belly? Now he wants us to charge their guns again. You think he’ll be within a mile of the shooting? No – he’ll be safe and sound in the rear. Well, I say, enough!” Do that enough times, in enough different platoons and companies and regiments, and the Harchongese army tears itself apart.
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Re: HFQ Snippet 27[?] a
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:32 am

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Gatling guns, now that you have metallic cartridges being mass produced with safe and reliable primers, are very feasible. They are a hand operated mechanical system. One variation uses a spring to operate the cycleing of the barrels and traverse the barrels back and forth. There are vidios of a clockwork Gatling in .45-70 being used on a range.

You can mount them on carts or use with tripods. Adding an angled defection "armor" shield would protect the crew. If they are being used in defensive positions the extra weight of the shield isn't too much of a problem. If you use the same ammuntion as the magazine fed rifles, you don't complicate the logistics except that you need a lot more of it. Aimed shots with the rifles are much more effective but the volume of fire from the Galting gives you advantage in static defense. You can also mount them on the ironclads for things such as canal raids.
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Re: HFQ Snippet 27[?] a
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:30 am

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Brigade XO wrote:Gatling guns, now that you have metallic cartridges being mass produced with safe and reliable primers, are very feasible. They are a hand operated mechanical system. One variation uses a spring to operate the cycleing of the barrels and traverse the barrels back and forth. There are vidios of a clockwork Gatling in .45-70 being used on a range.

You can mount them on carts or use with tripods. Adding an angled defection "armor" shield would protect the crew. If they are being used in defensive positions the extra weight of the shield isn't too much of a problem. If you use the same ammuntion as the magazine fed rifles, you don't complicate the logistics except that you need a lot more of it. Aimed shots with the rifles are much more effective but the volume of fire from the Galting gives you advantage in static defense. You can also mount them on the ironclads for things such as canal raids.


I suspect that you are not going to see gatling guns for this war. What I would expect is That they will be passed over for more modern machine guns that will be ready for the next round.

Don
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Re: HFQ Snippet 27[?] a
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:29 pm

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Hi OrlandoNative,

you're generally on the mark, we have textev in HFaF of Merlin being surprised by the combination of dragon transport and the canals.

OTOH, the Sword of Schueler struck in November 895, and the AoG entered the republic the following June, half a year later, during the normal campaign season.

Cayleb arrived in SC at the beginning of May, but there simply wasn't anything anyone could do to stop the advance through RoS territory held by the TL's.

The SoS did sabotage the canals, but not in a permanent fashion, so they were repairable in time to support the AoG's advance, whose invasion preparations were rather rushed since the SoS was quite a surprise to Magwair, and the AoG wasn't intended to invade the RoS in the first place.

Clyntahn wasn't in command or directing the AoG, but I suspect he knew from his inquisitors that the AoG had overwhelming advantages, given the restrictions the temple had placed on the RSA's modernization, that they could reach SC before Charis could effectively intervene.

L


OrlandoNative wrote:
n7axw wrote:I think what did catch Merlin by surprise was how fast Temple armies could move when compared to Terra armies in the same stage of development on earth. Those dragons made a real difference. For the protector and his advisors, they were suprised by the Temple's competence, particularly in managing logistics which also facilitated speed of movement.

It would seem from the storyline that most of the Temple army logistics were concentrated around canal travel. Not "Dragon travel", per se - though the dragons no doubt helped tow the barges on the canals.

You've got to remember that there's one *MAJOR* difference between Safehold and an analogous technological period on Earth. Namely, transportation mechanisms are *sacred* on Safehold. The canals, the roads, they're all enjoined by the Writ to be properly maintained and extended whenever possible. There was no Terran equivalent. Closest *might* have been to the roads and aqueducts of the Romans. Roman armies could move fairly quickly within the boundaries of the Empire. Outside, without the transportation infrastructure they moved much slower.

Siddarmark wasn't an isolated political entity, it was connected to the same road and canal system as the rest of the mainland states. The Sword of Schuler didn't destroy canals and roads, even if it *did* "depopulate" large sections of the outlying provinces. So until the AOG actually reached locations where the loyal Siddarmarkan's held sway, there was really nothing to slow them down. Indeed, the folks on horseback, and even on foot, got way ahead of most of their logistical support several times.

What really surprised the Protector, was the *timing* of the Sword of Schuler, and the fact that the AOG armies were ready to march soon after. However, given that the timing was basically set by a despot who couldn't care less about how many men his own side lost, whether to fighting, weather, or whatever, it really couldn't be any other way. If the rabblerousers and the soldiers *didn't* jump when he said, the Inquisition would have killed them just as dead as any Siddarmark pike, sword, or bullet.

When you've only really got one choice, making a decision isn't all that difficult.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: HFQ Snippet 27[?] a
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:52 pm

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Hi CaptinJoeHenry,

The US 'great depression' was made worse and much longer by government policies; the term 'recession' being invented by liberal economists to attempt to divert attention away from just how bad the '37 depression was especially when it was because of their stupid nostrums.

Rhobair may be papering over the long term direction of the CoGA's finances, but the effect of several battlefield defeats on what mainland money merchants think about where the war is headed, could drive a dramatic drop in the temple mark's value this spring and summer.

Then there's the Mohryah lode,and how sneaky Nahrmahn is.

Suppose Charis minted tens of millions of Temple marks, only with 10-20% less precious metal, distributed through Nynian's network of the SSK etc, then deliberately let it be discovered that some were counterfeit. 8-) :D

Revealed at the same time the alliance advances into TL territory; the BS, Dohlar, Desnar and the KotTL, the temple mark could nosedive into relative worthlessness, as everyone tries to unload out of fear of what the alliance may do to people with temple money.

While it might hurt Duchairn, he's covered by the inquisition checking the treasury's mints, but since no one [or not many] on the mainland yet knows about the Mohryah lode, where did all the extra silver gold come from?

Besides the Mohryah lode, it's quite likely that the SSK owns several silver and gold mines and has for several centuries, helping to finance its operations but suppose one of it plans might include counterfeiting the temple mark and some 2-3000 tons of silver were set aside for such an operation to spread say 100 million counterfeit marks in ~100 days before exposing the counterfeit?

Interesting times indeed.

L


captinjoehenry wrote:I am just wondering what the current financial situation the CoGA is in as from this snippet it seems they are saving some money but they are in the middle of basically rebuilding their entire steel industry from scratch and they are making a huge number of new weapons and in MTaT the CoGA seemed to be in almost dire financial straits. Now they have to totally rebuild a 300,000 man army and rearm all of their 1,000,000+ soldiers with a whole new set of new weapons and develop and deploy some very large never before built artillery to defend their coast from ironclads. So I am wondering when they will finally run out of money as back in MTaT they were already issuing notes for money they do not have and their expenses must have gone up with all of the new construction they need to do now and even members of the church working in their production centers I would assume they are only spending more money then ever.

All in all I think a major issue in HFQ is going to be the fact that the CoGA is finally going to run out of money and the CoGA mark is going to go through a MASSIVE inflation rate very soon so I think the CoGA is going to experience an even worse version of the USA's Great Depression.
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Re: HFQ Snippet 27[?] a
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:26 pm

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Hi EngineerBob,

"Very interesting" ;)

The problem with barb wire is that this war is very fluid, the theater of operations is not a few hundred miles wide like the western front in WWI, but thousands of miles; which means any WWI field fortifications can be flanked rather easily.

Given your normal supply concerns, most generals are going to prefer bullets to more passive means of slowing the enemy.

Then there's the time element of how long does it take to emplace barb wire, which if its too be useful can't be bypassed, so how far out are your scouts to prevent the enemy from seeing you erect the posts and nail something to them?

Yes, barb wire will be nasty when the EoC has the steel production to spare for it, but that's a while in the future.

You might consider checking the amount of wire, posts etc and time required to erect a 4 foot fence, or triple concertina for a battlefield stretching 4 to 8 miles, then ask yourself if you were the general, would you prefer to have bullets or mortar shells instead.

Regarding using Nimue to foment desertion and rebellion in the ranks etc; its rather clever and she's certainly almost indestructible, and could appear in many units in a single day, but such provocateur operations are a slow process until the circumstances are overwhelming, while her time is probably too valuable, however much she might enjoy it, while being encouraged by her friends in the inner circle.

Should someone start a thread of how many different type of characters Nimue should or could impersonate?

L


EngineerBob wrote:(My apologies for the length of this post. I couldn’t thing of a good way to split it up.)

I've read some speculation that ICA will develop machine guns for use against AoG. I *think* machine guns are still a little beyond Charisan technology, but Gatling guns should be well within it. Given revolvers and cartridges, it shouldn't be long before someone comes up with the idea. (Or Howsmyn makes some “suggestions” to Mahldyn, his armaments genius, that result in the same thing.)

Possibly equally important would be the development of barbed wire. Charis and its allies already have all the technology they need for that. All they need is for someone to come up with the idea. And given that Safehold’s ecology includes plants somewhat similar to barbed wire (Charis’s dagger thorns), I could see some sergeant telling his section “If we only had dagger thorns here, it would be damn near impossible for the Temple Boys to get us out.” “You know, Sarge, we could MAKE something like dagger thorns! My brother-in-law works in the wire-drawing factory at the Delthak Works, and he’s written to me about how they have to be careful cutting the wires as they come off the machine. They’re sharp as hell, and he says more than person has been cut by the end when they were careless. What if we took a length of wire, say, six inches long, and wrapped it around a long length of wire? Put the thorns every foot or so, and they’d play hell with anyone trying to get through it. Especially if we put three or four wires above each other, starting just above the ground and maybe a foot apart!”

OK, so now you’d have Gatling guns, barbed wire, land mines, and long-range artillery. Getting close to WWI technology, right? On the AoG side, you’ve got the Harchongese coming down from the north. They slam into the Gatling guns, barbed wire, land mines, and artillery of the ICA and their Siddamarkian allies. The Harchongese take heavy casualties, just like the British, French, and German armies did, especially in the early days of WWI. But Harchongelse political and military leaders don’t really care, do they? After all, it’s mostly just the damn peasants who are dying. Not someone who matters.

And this is where Nahrmahn’s sneakiness comes into play. Did you know the French army mutinied late in WWI? (1917, to be precise.) (I'll bet Nahrmahn knows this. If not, Owl could bring it to his attention.) And this was an army that liked, or at least generally respected its political and military leaders; one that wasn’t treated as slaves. Nimue takes advantage of her size (“… a bit short for a man, but close enough to the norm that you could pass for whichever you choose.”) and ability to change her appearance to impersonate Harchongese soldiers (probably mainly privates and PFCs – there are so many, they’re anonymous) and begins spreading defeatism and sedition among the ranks. The average Harchongese soldier probably hates and fears his officers – it’s only his loyalty to Mother Church, and the fear of discipline, that keeps him going forward. What happens when the Harchongese soldiers fear ICA’s weapons as much as their own MPs and military discipline? At the same time, Nimue is going “We’re dying by the hundreds – thousands! And the Colonel doesn’t care. Does it look like he’s missed any meals? When was the last time any of us had a full belly? Now he wants us to charge their guns again. You think he’ll be within a mile of the shooting? No – he’ll be safe and sound in the rear. Well, I say, enough!” Do that enough times, in enough different platoons and companies and regiments, and the Harchongese army tears itself apart.
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Re: HFQ Snippet 27[?] a
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:28 pm

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lyonheart wrote:Hi CaptinJoeHenry,

The US 'great depression' was made worse and much longer by government policies; the term 'recession' being invented by liberal economists to attempt to divert attention away from just how bad the '37 depression was especially when it was because of their stupid nostrums.



Yep. The down turn occurred when Roosevelt decided it was time to balance the budget by cutting back on the amount of money the government was pumping into the economy.

Pop quiz question: what was the biggest public works project in American history?

Answer- WW2.

The economy did not fully recover until the war effort was under way.

Don
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