Could the SLN do this?

kzt wrote:

Castenea wrote:War has broken out, the SL is still building war material in peacetime mode, how long will it take them to mobilize?

The RMN expects to go from having no industry at all to producing modern ships in two years. Since most systems didn't have someone blow up their entire industrial base that's pretty much an upper limit. Though having an effective ship design might still be an issue.

This plus Jeff's analogy are probably the SL's biggest problem. It doesn't matter if EVERY system in the SLN develops and hands over two old style dreadnoughts every year until the heat death of the universe, and the GA would survive and thrive.

The Mandarins HAVE to simultaneously get tech that can fight at the GA level first level, train their officers and enlisted folks to fight at the GA level, AND coordinate AND out produce the GA before they run out of the "spare change" before the Haven Sector and Verge stabilize without their hands in the cookie jar.

Not going to happen.

How about they each just start building pods of the multi-stage missiles at the rate Manticore was. Say 1000 pods a day, in each of 2000 systems? So in two months, every system has 60,000 pods of DDMs. How many RMN or RHN ships does it take to absorb 600,000 DDMs? You need that for EVERY single SL system.

This while they work on the 3 & 4 stage version. Should take a few months, as it is multiple full missiles glued together. It will be huge, but work just fine as a system defense unit.

kzt wrote:How about they each just start building pods of the multi-stage missiles at the rate Manticore was. Say 1000 pods a day, in each of 2000 systems? So in two months, every system has 60,000 pods of DDMs. How many RMN or RHN ships does it take to absorb 600,000 DDMs? You need that for EVERY single SL system.

How about each system secedes from the League and makes a separate mutual defense treaty with the GA; that way they get (plans for) "super-LACS" and four-stage Apollo pods with FTL fire control.

Which would be the better deal? 600,000 kluged multi-stage missiles with light-speed fire-control or plans (and examples) for Super-LACs and four-stage system defense missiles with Apollo FTL control?

Weird Harold wrote:
How about each system secedes from the League and makes a separate mutual defense treaty with the GA; that way they get (plans for) "super-LACS" and four-stage Apollo pods with FTL fire control.

And they will negotiate this how? And I'm sure glad you plan to had the RF all the core GA tech secrets, tell me how that works out for you?

kzt wrote:And they will negotiate this how? And I'm sure glad you plan to had the RF all the core GA tech secrets, tell me how that works out for you?

Given the "public face" of the RF (as individual members and as a proto-nation/alliance against SL Corruption, there's no reason for the GA to refuse mutual defense treaties with individual members or the RF as a military-assistance-group or new "star empire."

Manticore has a history of sharing military tech with treaty partners, but has also shown the ability to retain a few technology secrets along the way: i.e. Erewhon is selling Maya "GA tech" that is a generation or two older than current (eg Apollo) tech.

Unless "plot armor" exposes the RF as a MAlign front, sharing "GA-Tech" with the MAlign via the RF has to be predicted as a "MAlign win."

Manticore seems to operate on the assumption that new tech will become general knowledge shortly after being used extensively. They take steps to minimize and delay the spread of mil-tech, but work to stay ahead in numbers deployed and new innovations.

tl;dr: According to the Harrington Doctrine, mutual defense treaties with successor states is the way to defeat the League; if that requires sharing all or some "GA-tech" then they'll deal with those problems when they become real problems instead of paranoia.

kzt wrote:How about they each just start building pods of the multi-stage missiles at the rate Manticore was. Say 1000 pods a day, in each of 2000 systems? So in two months, every system has 60,000 pods of DDMs. How many RMN or RHN ships does it take to absorb 600,000 DDMs? You need that for EVERY single SL system.

This while they work on the 3 & 4 stage version. Should take a few months, as it is multiple full missiles glued together. It will be huge, but work just fine as a system defense unit.

Of course, that is dependent on all those systems getting the technical 'drawings' and other information from Technodyne for DDM's, or inventing (and then engineering) it themselves.

Two more points I have made before:

(1). The Solarian Core Systems (save those few with significant SDF's) have little or no infrastructure to even start making weapons, no background tech, no engineering, probably no plan. At least Manticore has 40+ years of experience and 'know-how' (in the data banks and retired personnel) on what to build and how to build it--which is why the two year date was (I agree with kzt, perhaps optomistically) given. If you're starting at day 1, without even a doodle of a drawing on a pad of papic, it'll take you a wee bit longer.

2. These systems have been at peace for Centuries. That is something that humanity has generally failed to do very often (Europe has now gone 70 years without a Great Power war, which may be a historical record; but it has not always been peaceful-Falklands War, Balkans Wars, various coalition actions). None of us can really gauge the mindset of a people that have not faced a military crisis like this for multiple generations.

We are reacting here as people who have faced and known war in our time; some have probably served in those times, or know people that have. How will a people that have known peace for centuries react if faced with the need to militarize?

Especially if the GA can give them reasons not too expend such blood and treasure...

We shall see, eventually.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

kzt wrote:How about they each just start building pods of the multi-stage missiles at the rate Manticore was. Say 1000 pods a day, in each of 2000 systems? So in two months, every system has 60,000 pods of DDMs. How many RMN or RHN ships does it take to absorb 600,000 DDMs? You need that for EVERY single SL system.

This while they work on the 3 & 4 stage version. Should take a few months, as it is multiple full missiles glued together. It will be huge, but work just fine as a system defense unit.

Depends on whether the GA ships were stumbling in blindly, or if they did a proper scouting job.

With a proper pre-raid scouting their recon drones would have found many of the pods and they could them mistletoe them, and potentially whatever'd providing the fire control for them, and then the system is very vulnerable again.

Jonathan_S wrote:

kzt wrote:How about they each just start building pods of the multi-stage missiles at the rate Manticore was. Say 1000 pods a day, in each of 2000 systems? So in two months, every system has 60,000 pods of DDMs. How many RMN or RHN ships does it take to absorb 600,000 DDMs? You need that for EVERY single SL system.

This while they work on the 3 & 4 stage version. Should take a few months, as it is multiple full missiles glued together. It will be huge, but work just fine as a system defense unit.

Depends on whether the GA ships were stumbling in blindly, or if they did a proper scouting job.

With a proper pre-raid scouting their recon drones would have found many of the pods and they could them mistletoe them, and potentially whatever'd providing the fire control for them, and then the system is very vulnerable again.

Which means you need a fleet and quite a bit of time. Per system.

Other than the simple fact that if the GA wanted to, it could reduce the entire SL to the stone-age in less than 2 months starting from right NOW. We've been through the numbers before.

Don't exactly make any friends doing so, but they COULD do it. Given time, the PO'd SL members would come back and crush you if you did not continuously hammer the ex SL members back to the stone age. Still not making any friends doing this either...

Weird Harold wrote:

kzt wrote:And they will negotiate this how? And I'm sure glad you plan to had the RF all the core GA tech secrets, tell me how that works out for you?

Given the "public face" of the RF (as individual members and as a proto-nation/alliance against SL Corruption, there's no reason for the GA to refuse mutual defense treaties with individual members or the RF as a military-assistance-group or new "star empire."

Manticore has a history of sharing military tech with treaty partners, but has also shown the ability to retain a few technology secrets along the way: i.e. Erewhon is selling Maya "GA tech" that is a generation or two older than current (eg Apollo) tech.

Unless "plot armor" exposes the RF as a MAlign front, sharing "GA-Tech" with the MAlign via the RF has to be predicted as a "MAlign win."

Manticore seems to operate on the assumption that new tech will become general knowledge shortly after being used extensively. They take steps to minimize and delay the spread of mil-tech, but work to stay ahead in numbers deployed and new innovations.

tl;dr: According to the Harrington Doctrine, mutual defense treaties with successor states is the way to defeat the League; if that requires sharing all or some "GA-tech" then they'll deal with those problems when they become real problems instead of paranoia.

A lot more will depend on the politics of the individual systems. For those who didn't read TOF, or don't remember, Luff and the PNE was astonished by the total indifference of the League to anything resembling "efficiency". The apathy they exhibit in politics was only exceeded by their apathy in the workplace. And, in ART
you have the Sollie transtellar manager who said something like "Why would anything in Spindle have anything to do with us?"

Kzt is right to be skeptical about any tech transfers; pre-war designs like the culverin/valiant are effective for fending off pirates; modern tech likely won't be pursued by most systems, who will try to buy or hire security, not build it.

A lot will depend on the political outcome of the Solarian Leagues' disintegration. If the GA does not occupy systems or forcibly annex them, they will gain some credibility and trust among successors. If they allow successor states of their own size or larger, with local security forces, a lot of local anxiety will dissipate. If they act to prevent too-aggressive warlords from annexing helpless systems, allowing them to exercise their independence, they will gain additional goodwill. If they retain the commercial networks and currency standards, systems won't find themselves bankrupted with the League's politcal collapse.

And MWW spends a lot of words on politics, heh.

Consider also:
Manticore shared some--not nearly all--tech with their allies.

Consider: Erewhon is not building LACs. During Buttercup, Erewhon deployed 12 DNs, as well as screening/scouting elements. LACs were offensive weapons platforms for engaging the screen, and killing cripples. It wasn't a missile defense platform or a replacement for a destroyer--then.

The Mk17e is an Erewhonese locally built version of the Mk-14 --but no mention is made of "off-bore" capability, even though that was part of the 1913? Shrike-B and Ferret classes, and a big reason for Gauntlet's survival in Tiburion (1917).

The Star Warrior lost in Tiburion in 1917 was equipped with the equivalent sensors and missiles as a Culverin class, "a Fleet unit". Although the Warrior class looks like the Wolfhound in size, it's really just a big Culverin, because Erewhon can't miniaturize components as well. The Marksman looks like it ought to be a Mk-14 equipped Avalon type-- but the original configuration of 8 missile tubes looks a lot like the Valiant to me. Erewhon went to the all-graser energy battery, but that could be more influence from the GSN than transfer from the RMN. In short, Erewhon is more than one tech generation back, both in equipment and in tactics/doctrine.

The reason they shared missile tech and Keyhole with the Andies was because they NEEDED modern ships more than they needed to keep their tech secret--if they went down, what difference would it make if the Andies had it? But I doubt it went over very well with the old-timers in BuWeaps.

My point to all this is that while they are sharing tech within their military alliance, they will likely sell only "export" grade tech to those neutrals who aren't hostile. (cf., the Torches' frigates don't have frontline systems).

YMMV

Rob