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Technology Levels of Safehold in 890 | |
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by JRM » Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:26 am | |
JRM
Posts: 88
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Hi,
Usually by the time I read a thread, and want to make a comment, thread drift has set in. I was inspired to this entry by several previous threads, so I will throw it into a new thread. My question is what was the original tech level of various areas of Safehold life, and how do the proscriptions and the OBS relate to what was the assumed or projected level of technology. Here are some of my guesses: Textiles,16th century. I am reminded of a story from “Why Nations Fail” about William Lee who created a stocking frame knitting machine in 1589, only to have his request for a patent turned down by Queen Elizabeth I , then the French monarchy, and then by King James I. Did Langhorne intend all textiles to be hand knitted, or was that just a result of the breakdown of civilization after the War Against the Fallen. Sailing, maybe 17th century. I found it interesting that Charis spent so much time training sailing masters, with advanced navigation skills, and yet their galleons were rather primitive. Food preservation, mid 19th century. This would include rules for sanitary food handling, and maybe canning. When Howsmyn describes what needs to be done to create brass cartridges, he says that brass containers had been made by drawing operations for centuries for apothecaries and food preservation. Is that canning? Chemistry ? century. They have recipes for things to do, and recipes for things to avoid, but there is no understanding of why. Math ? century. Just how much can you do with Roman numerals? Architecture ? century The understanding of geometry must be pretty advanced. It would have to be used in Charis’ navigation. We have descriptions of all kinds of buildings that aren’t falling apart. We have the description of the canal locks and pumps which are affective, and relatively trouble free. Notice the complaints about the temporary nature of the church’s repairs to the canals after the raid. Metal work, mid 19th century. Starting with the very first book, Merlin describes a cotton gin, and a spinning jenny. That is Feb 891, and we don’t hear another word about those until we hear that Charis has greatly increased the amount of textiles that it produces. What you didn’t hear was that a whole new infrastructure had to be created to build the textile machines. It can be inferred that all of the knowledge, and skills existed to build water wheels with iron or steel drive shafts, that the textile machines can be built with metal structures where required, and that whatever gearing is necessary internally within the machine can be built. This is implicit in the hand built watches and clocks. Another reason to believe the advanced state of metal work is where Howsmyn muses that “Safehold had always had a working empirical understanding of hydraulics… of concepts which had been used in the waterworks the “archangels” had made part of Safehold’s infrastructure from the Day of Creation.” I take that to mean cast iron pipe and metal pumps. When Lieutenant Zhwaigair examines the Mahndrahn rifles his comment is: “That indicates that the heretics are using a lot more powered machinery like trip-hammers and stamp mills than we are.” and “Given some time to think about it, my uncle could probably set up a shop to do a lot of the same things, but he has no more than a hundred workmen. I can’t even begin to estimate what his output might be if he followed the heretics’ example with powered machinery, but I can’t believe it would be anywhere near what the heretics’ve actually accomplished.” He didn’t say, “Gosh, we don’t know what they did, or even how we might copy it.” Ship building ? century. Notice that Charis didn’t have any problem modifying their existing galleon designs to carry truck mounted cannon, and once the church's navies got around to recognizing the need, they didn’t have any problem building armed galleons either. Mining ? century. When Howsmyn describes his new foundry, he says that “the new docks at Fraidys’ll have steam power on the cranes and conveyors from the beginning.” So what was powering the cranes and conveyors prior to steam engines? RFC said in a reply to Dilandu, that Safehold’s technology and skill level was not comparable with any historical time on earth. I think the mixed nature of Safehold’s technology is the only thing that keeps the series from being science fantasy. The mixed nature of Safehold technology also has to be considered when you consider automatic actions by the OBS. |
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Re: Technology Levels of Safehold in 890 | |
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by Weird Harold » Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:53 am | |
Weird Harold
Posts: 4478
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Prior to Merlin, the Writ specified "Wind, Water, and Muscle" were permitted to power technology. Steam was justified as "a combination of wind and water." Prior to Steam Power, docks had no conveyers and cranes were man or animal muscle powered (since wind would be unreliable and docks are usually located where water power is practical.) As for Math, much of Mathematics was invented by the Greeks, Egyptians, and Romans -- pretty much everything but exponents and calculus. It took longer to make the notations, but the Math was pretty much what students in the early 20th century got in grade school. .
. . Answers! I got lots of answers! (Now if I could just find the right questions.) |
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Re: Technology Levels of Safehold in 890 | |
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by JRM » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:13 am | |
JRM
Posts: 88
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Hi Harold, All over the world we have examples of oxen or mules being harnessed to a shaft extensions to rotate a vertical drive shaft. Could Charis have had conveyors and used dragons to supply the power? What would that imply about amount and types of metal needed in a conveyor belt used to transport ore? James |
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Re: Technology Levels of Safehold in 890 | |
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by Larry » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:42 am | |
Larry
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Something like this one imagines. https://www.flickr.com/photos/21274446@N05/5806157127 or this http://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraffr ... gue-castle Heck even the Romans had this. https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrinkn ... 475ca9.gif Larry |
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Re: Technology Levels of Safehold in 890 | |
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by Weird Harold » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:05 am | |
Weird Harold
Posts: 4478
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There are plenty of real world examples of muscle powered cranes -- both "cage" types such as Larry linked and Capstan types as were/are common on sailing ships. I suspect Docks would tend to the latter style with man-power as opposed to animal-power) because of space restrictions dock-side. Conveyers aren't really practical for muscle power because of energy losses to the mechanism of the conveyer itself. the extra men/animals required to overcome the losses in the conveyer works would take up too much dock space. That wouldn't really be a problem, with steam as long as the engine was powerful enough; using a more powerful engine doesn't take up much more dock-space than a smaller one would. .
. . Answers! I got lots of answers! (Now if I could just find the right questions.) |
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Re: Technology Levels of Safehold in 890 | |
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by pokermind » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:14 am | |
pokermind
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Not to mention Julius Caesar's troops used a pile driver to bridge the Rhine River in the Gallic Wars.
Poker CPO Poker Mind and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.
"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART. |
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Re: Technology Levels of Safehold in 890 | |
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by Keith_w » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:40 am | |
Keith_w
Posts: 976
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They had water wheel powered looms, and presumably powered spinning wheels to create the thread used by those looms - I don't think that anyone knitted sails.
As far as sailing technology goes, how long did we use Cogs, Hulks and Galleons? I think the driving technology on Safehold was the cannon. Prior to Merlin's arrival cannon were low use items, naval warfare taking place from galleys. Since cannon were not truck mounted there was no ability to use them rapidly, so no one invested in the technology to use them as the primary force in naval battles. Making the switch from galley to galleon was a big expensive step. As for the sailing master skills, they were primarily knowledge based from previous voyages based on wind, currents and known speeds, and the records of other sailing masters (ie, rutters), not sextant based mathematical navigation. --
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. |
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Re: Technology Levels of Safehold in 890 | |
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by n7axw » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:53 am | |
n7axw
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If what we are discussing here is pre-Merlin tech, then I think we need to note that it was Merlin who introduced the powered looms and spinning wheels as a part of that first batch of innovations in OAR. Don When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Technology Levels of Safehold in 890 | |
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by AirTech » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:58 am | |
AirTech
Posts: 476
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Depends on the level of technology you have. The Polynesians sailed from Taiwan to the coast of Peru with no instruments at all and maps made of bamboo and twigs. The sailing masters training took a decade or more to master however. Better instruments make navigation a more precise art and accurate published maps make it repeatable. (BTW we are still massive finding map errors in 2013 - Google Sandy Island as an example). The script contained accurate maps however the punching of Armageddon Reef (amongst other holes) would have altered the currents and terrain quite a bit. |
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Re: Technology Levels of Safehold in 890 | |
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by EdThomas » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:20 am | |
EdThomas
Posts: 518
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Hi All, been in the land of no-internet for several weeks.
All of the subjects here have been thrashed over at least several times. What is amazing, to me, at least, about the replies is the lack of the "I" word. Safeholdians weren't born any less inquisitive or creative than their earth ancestors. They unfortunately lived on a planet where innovation was seriously discouraged by an all-powerful religion. Everything had been given by the Archangels so it was sacriligious to think of changing anything. "What if" was not something parents would encourage their little urchins to think, or speak, where good Langhorne-fearing folk might hear. Except, of course, on Charis, which gives us our story |
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