Optimal Charisian Navy (IMHO)

JustCurious wrote:The KH VIIs have two serious disadvantages in the shore bombardment role. Expense and draft.

Completely agree. And I repeat about the Franco-Prussian war of 1871. The French fleet - second only to the british this time (and, actually, maybe even second to none this time!) - was completely unable to do something against german coastline, simply because it lacked any sufficient coastal forces. Oh yes, french navy have a lot of powerfull ironclads, that was pretty capable of standing agaisnt any enemy ship... but this ironclads was too big to operate on relatively shallow german coastline! All support ships, that French have, was also build for ocean operations, not the coastal. The German Navy in 1871 was almost as pathetic against French as Deshnarian against Charisian - but the French Navy couldn't do anything against german coastline (exept the bombardment of civilian targets, that french admirals considered dishonorable, and eventually decided not to do), because they lacked the coastal ships.

JustCurious wrote:The KH VIIs have two serious disadvantages in the shore bombardment role. Expense and draft.

Granted. But they're hardly built for nothing but shore bombardment, so if they're pricey for one role of many, that's probably tolerable. And whatever is used for shore bombardment in the Gulf of Dohlar or Lake Pei has to be readily capable of a long ocean voyage, as much as you may want less draft when you get there.

It's not as though the King Haarahlds are the only ship being built or operated. If there's anything they can do better than a whole collection of ships at a price in various resources less than that rival collection, there's a reason to build them. If there's anything that only they could do (within Charis' current means), there's some reason to build them.

Is it a compelling reason? That's going to depend on the other options, the goals to be achieved, and the various costs. We don't have the information to suppose they're eating up the resources that could field a hundred lighter gunboats, or that critical targets are going to have water too shallow too far out. I do think we can assume that, given the needs and means Charis does have - on which RFC's a better authority than any of us - the KH's represent a reasonable allocation of resources, as we haven't got reason to suppose that Merlin, Cayleb, Admiral Staynair et al are fools or very poorly informed.

Agreed. Those are offset by their range and ability to project force. Smaller platforms need more support to accomplish the same degree of force projection.

JustCurious wrote:The KH VIIs have two serious disadvantages in the shore bombardment role. Expense and draft.

In a bow to PeterZ here, my comment was not directed against the KHs which can and undoubtedly will serve the function that he describes.

However most of the coastal work that needs to be done at the moment involves those small harbors and fishing villages where those commerce raiders are being built and where the KHs cannot go.

This is what the "Cities" are able to deal with. They are a seaworthy ironclad with draft shallow enough to deal with those smaller ports. We also know that that the availability of the "Cities" is going to grow sinse they are coming off the slips of an ongoing building program.

Just a comment to respond to the posts replying to my comment about Safehold being David's creation and not a clone of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries here on earth...

Yes, no doubt David is using that timeframe as a rough model which provides at least limited predicability about what comes next. What you cannot do, however, is assume that David is bound by anyones notions of what that timeframe was really like or its limitations. For example, you cannot assume, as Dilandu was apparently doing, that sinse Charis is only so far advanced technically, only has so many engineers or experienced workers, it must be impossible for Charis to competently build the Haarahlds.

I repeat, Safehold is a work of fiction the limits and perameters of which are set by David Weber. Sometimes he may honor the limits of the model he has chosen. Sometimes he may decide, for the sake of the story, to change them. So, again, if David decides that six Haarahlds are coming off the slips to be put into service this summer, that's the way it is. Arguing about what David can and can't do in his universe is a bit silly.

Don

n7axw wrote:I repeat, Safehold is a work of fiction the limits and perameters of which are set by David Weber. Sometimes he may honor the limits of the model he has chosen. Sometimes he may decide, for the sake of the story, to change them. So, again, if David decides that six Haarahlds are coming off the slips to be put into service this summer, that's the way it is. Arguing about what David can and can't do in his universe is a bit silly.

Don

Of course. But it's within our rights as readers to point out that something may look strange.

n7axw wrote:In a bow to PeterZ here, my comment was not directed against the KHs which can and undoubtedly will serve the function that he describes.

However most of the coastal work that needs to be done at the moment involves those small harbors and fishing villages where those commerce raiders are being built and where the KHs cannot go.

This is what the "Cities" are able to deal with. They are a seaworthy ironclad with draft shallow enough to deal with those smaller ports. We also know that that the availability of the "Cities" is going to grow sinse they are coming off the slips of an ongoing building program.

It's worth emphasizing too that the Lake Pei/Gulf of Dohlar targets are likely to call for better defended fire platforms and/or longer-ranged guns, and certainly more long-range, seaworthy vessels, than the multitude of privateer-basing Desnairian villages. Those villages are a far shorter voyage from Charisian bases, so seaworthiness and range won't be nearly so important against them, but numbers will be. Heck, seizing and holding a decent-enough port on the Desnairian coast itself would be doable if useful, as would setting up a station on Samson's Land.

Dilandu wrote:

n7axw wrote:I repeat, Safehold is a work of fiction the limits and perameters of which are set by David Weber. Sometimes he may honor the limits of the model he has chosen. Sometimes he may decide, for the sake of the story, to change them. So, again, if David decides that six Haarahlds are coming off the slips to be put into service this summer, that's the way it is. Arguing about what David can and can't do in his universe is a bit silly.

Don

Of course. But it's within our rights as readers to point out that something may look strange.

Totally agree says the one who speculates about the psychological motivations of fictional characters or comments on their consistency.

n7axw wrote:In a bow to PeterZ here, my comment was not directed against the KHs which can and undoubtedly will serve the function that he describes.

However most of the coastal work that needs to be done at the moment involves those small harbors and fishing villages where those commerce raiders are being built and where the KHs cannot go.

This is what the "Cities" are able to deal with. They are a seaworthy ironclad with draft shallow enough to deal with those smaller ports. We also know that that the availability of the "Cities" is going to grow sinse they are coming off the slips of an ongoing building program.

Just a comment to respond to the posts replying to my comment about Safehold being David's creation and not a clone of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries here on earth...

Yes, no doubt David is using that timeframe as a rough model which provides at least limited predicability about what comes next. What you cannot do, however, is assume that David is bound by anyones notions of what that timeframe was really like or its limitations. For example, you cannot assume, as Dilandu was apparently doing, that sinse Charis is only so far advanced technically, only has so many engineers or experienced workers, it must be impossible for Charis to competently build the Haarahlds.

I repeat, Safehold is a work of fiction the limits and perameters of which are set by David Weber. Sometimes he may honor the limits of the model he has chosen. Sometimes he may decide, for the sake of the story, to change them. So, again, if David decides that six Haarahlds are coming off the slips to be put into service this summer, that's the way it is. Arguing about what David can and can't do in his universe is a bit silly.

Don

I do believe that Cayleb stated that he was looking forward to sailing the KHs up Hsing-wu's passage, into Temple bay, and landing the ICA there and that, more than coastal operations may be what is driving the construction of these ships.

Dilandu wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Stalin had the manpower to support his strategy of attrition. He needed to spend lives like water to make it work. Again, not a good parallel to Charis.

Really? So you think that if the USSR build one or two impressive thousand-tonn tanks instead of thousand of T-34, it would work better? Perhaps the germans would be so crushed psychologically that they would surrender because of just the impression of soviet monster-tanks?

Really, for some reason i doubt that!

. The losses at midway crippled the IJN.

And by 1944, the Japanese rebuild their carrier force on significant level and were in rough parity with USA. It was the quality of pilots, that make the Philippine Sea Battle victorious for USA. And, also, the sub that sunk "Taiho".

Of course, the Germans did build the Maus and the Dora. On the other hand, if the war had lasted another year or two, the Soviets would have deployed the JS and perhaps the JSIII.

The ship class that did the most to win the war in the Pacific was the Submarine. Japanese commerce was strangled. The Japanese could have tried the same but failed to do so.

However, the most important point of the King Haraald is that it is so advanced as to be a morale breaker.

Dilandu wrote:The French fleet - second only to the British this time (and, actually, maybe even second to none this time!) - was completely unable to do something against German coastline,

Well of course not, they were French, you could have ended it there.
Sorry Dilandu, but you did rather open yourself up for that one.
The fact is that large guns can and have projected power inland as any number of US Battleships have demonstrated. The 16" guns on the IOWA class could shoot a projectile 24 miles. And note that they didn't have to go into the shallows to do it. While the KH's won't have quite that range, they will allow a projection of power from deeper waters. True they may not be able to get into the same shallow draft as a raft or canoe, but they can carry bigger guns and more of them.
Also I agree with those who argue that you have vastly underrated the improvement that a large, more stable platform gives to precision gunnery when you don't have automatic compensation systems to drop the shell where you want it. But even more than that you seem to have misplaced the whole point of the class. Face it, the KH class ships aren't for convoy protection or catching raiders, so arguing they are ill fitted for that purpose is a straw-man argument at best. The KH is about projecting power, hammering an opponents fortifications and bringing the wrath of Charis onto any enemies land territories. They are there to pulverize a beach defense or port defense so that the Charisian Marines and Army can then swarm ashore in relative impunity. There heavy pounding, heavy hitters intended to demolish an opposing fleet and devastate an opposing set of fortifications. They are there to deliver the message that Cayleb and Sharleyan are pissed at you in no uncertain terms.
Other class of ships can and are being built to deal with raiders and privateers as David made clear when I ticked him off over his habit of calling every blasted ship he has sailing in his world a Galleon and he read me the riot act about it being his damned world and why wasn't I not noticing that his new galleons weren't the same as his original galleons. (Well because you keep calling every blessed thing with sails on it a Galleon perhaps?)(A habit I still think is irritating. Start calling them by proper names like ships of the line, frigate, cruiser, etc. so the readers can keep them straight) (Or at least call them 1st class Galleons, 2nd class Galleons, etc.)(But I digress) He was quite clear that what was coming off the boards other than the King Haarahlds would be sufficient, eventually, to deal with the problem. Fleet protection wasn't the reason for the King Haarahld's.
As for your original idea that the whole Charisian Navy isn't structured properly because they built the King Haarahlds, well good grief, they are only building six of the bloody things, so it's not as if all other construction has stopped. They aren't a one shipyard nation. They are a rapidly industrializing empire now with multiple shipyards and factories. I assume, and I suspect you should as well, that there's a lot going on off stage that is simply not germane to the main story, but that is covering those bases. Charis, Chisholm, Emerald, even Tarot are busy places nowadays with lots of foundries starting, industry ramping up, etc.
And finally one final thing to mention, and others have already said it. IT'S JUST A STORY! Look all Science Fiction stories involve at least a dozen impossible things before breakfast that must be believed. Is the Charisian industry ramping faster than it could possible do in the real world? Yes, in my opinion. Is the Charisian navy making big ships so we can get a real humdinger of a show when they finally swing into action? Of course. Are some strategies unnaturally successful that shouldn't ought to be? Of course! The dynamic of the story required a particular outcome so they got it. Let's be real here; you're perfectly OK with a recorded personality in a robotic body running around doling out magical hints of technology to a renaissance(at best)level culture, but you have a problem with the allocation of materiel resources and the microeconomics of it??? Say What?!?!? It's like a movie Dilandu, sit back, disengage mind, enjoy the daring do, the smell of gun smoke, and the pretty girls. Have a popcorn and some soda-pop and don't try to make sense of it. Be Honest, when you went to see Pirates of the Caribbean did you critique the British marching formations? Or notice that not one single other navy was mentioned except the Brits? Well same principal here. Do you honestly thing that the fencing on top of a rolling mill wheel was in the least bit realistic? Of course not!! But wasn't it fun to watch.
If the books were being realistic then Charis would have been crushed in book one and Merlin would have to try again in a hundred years. It's the unreal-ism that keeps it going. Lighten up old man, and enjoy the show.

Larry