Mistletoe 2

A different thread got me thinking about whether or not this would be feasible and even useful. From a tech standpoint, I don't see how this would require anything ground breaking, just some tweaking of existing equipment. Financially, the cost may just be too high to justify its common use. Tactically, it may or may not have a role to play.

Anyway, my thought was to arm Mistletoe drones with all up shipkiller laserheads, and then use them before a missile engagement for precision strikes. Basically, the heavily missile drone could get into ideal position for an up/down the kilt shot while under stealth and then upon activation aim and fire. Almost no warning - just the missile heads going off and devastating a warships hammerhead.

And, this is a potential weapon that would have application after the war: If the RMN itself has trouble finding Ghost Rider drones then it follows that every Navy that does not have superior sensor tech would also have trouble. As long as the RMN can make stealth capable of defeating its own sensors even some of the time this weapon could be valuable in multiple combat roles (specifically of the long-range kind).

Erls wrote:A different thread got me thinking about whether or not this would be feasible and even useful. From a tech standpoint, I don't see how this would require anything ground breaking, just some tweaking of existing equipment. Financially, the cost may just be too high to justify its common use. Tactically, it may or may not have a role to play.

Anyway, my thought was to arm Mistletoe drones with all up shipkiller laserheads, and then use them before a missile engagement for precision strikes. Basically, the heavily missile drone could get into ideal position for an up/down the kilt shot while under stealth and then upon activation aim and fire. Almost no warning - just the missile heads going off and devastating a warships hammerhead.

And, this is a potential weapon that would have application after the war: If the RMN itself has trouble finding Ghost Rider drones then it follows that every Navy that does not have superior sensor tech would also have trouble. As long as the RMN can make stealth capable of defeating its own sensors even some of the time this weapon could be valuable in multiple combat roles (specifically of the long-range kind).

It's going to depend on where the sensor vs. stealth battle comes out at the next technological plateau between peer navies. Lately, we've seen RMN stealth beat Havenite sensors and run silly circles around SLN sensors, and SLN stealth get guffaws out of RMN sensors and brushed aside with contempt whenever they care to make the drones stop reporting.

Is there reason to think that RMN sensors against RMN recon drones would let the drones get that close before the Mistletoe gets the shot off? Being hard to detect is one thing, but such that you can't localize it when it's maneuvering into a specific narrow area that close to you that you've got reason to watch carefully with lots of sensors - is something else.

It would be much too large per unit deadliness to be a routine shipkiller, and does require winning a gamble between stealth and sensors. But within those considerations, I think it would have a niche role.

JeffEngel wrote:

Erls wrote:A different thread got me thinking about whether or not this would be feasible and even useful. From a tech standpoint, I don't see how this would require anything ground breaking, just some tweaking of existing equipment. Financially, the cost may just be too high to justify its common use. Tactically, it may or may not have a role to play.

Anyway, my thought was to arm Mistletoe drones with all up shipkiller laserheads, and then use them before a missile engagement for precision strikes. Basically, the heavily missile drone could get into ideal position for an up/down the kilt shot while under stealth and then upon activation aim and fire. Almost no warning - just the missile heads going off and devastating a warships hammerhead.

And, this is a potential weapon that would have application after the war: If the RMN itself has trouble finding Ghost Rider drones then it follows that every Navy that does not have superior sensor tech would also have trouble. As long as the RMN can make stealth capable of defeating its own sensors even some of the time this weapon could be valuable in multiple combat roles (specifically of the long-range kind).

It's going to depend on where the sensor vs. stealth battle comes out at the next technological plateau between peer navies. Lately, we've seen RMN stealth beat Havenite sensors and run silly circles around SLN sensors, and SLN stealth get guffaws out of RMN sensors and brushed aside with contempt whenever they care to make the drones stop reporting.

Is there reason to think that RMN sensors against RMN recon drones would let the drones get that close before the Mistletoe gets the shot off? Being hard to detect is one thing, but such that you can't localize it when it's maneuvering into a specific narrow area that close to you that you've got reason to watch carefully with lots of sensors - is something else.

It would be much too large per unit deadliness to be a routine shipkiller, and does require winning a gamble between stealth and sensors. But within those considerations, I think it would have a niche role.

I mentioned it only because I recall during at least one training exercise RMN sensors were completely fooled by Ghost Rider EW, as well as that during RMN training exercises I've never seen anything about Ghost Rider drones being discovered by the opposing force. That led me to believe that RMN stealth (at least on drones) > RMN sensors.

And I agree completely that it would make zero sense as a standard weapon deployment, something used in every battle situation. But, I can certainly see (in the books alone) many battle scenarios where the ability to sneak in even a half dozen shipkiller armed drones and get basically "free" kilt shots would have substantially changed the engagement. And that where this could be decisive.

A squadron of BCs with DD escorts finds itself up against a division of SDs and lighter escorts. If the BCs were able to get 1 or 2 up the kilt shots on each SD (especially pod layers!) that would decisively change the engagement. Instead of having to run, if they were able to take out 3 of the 4 SDs pod laying hammerheads, its a different story... Or, think of what could happen to a task groups cohesiveness if they outnumber the enemy 2-1, but when they are still hours away from combat they start taking 'random' up the kilt shots that take out nodes and cause damage.

So yes, it would certainly not be a common use weapon. But, having some of them 'up the sleeve' could help a good commander change the odds and either win what should of been a loss or survive what should of been a massacre.

Erls wrote:I mentioned it only because I recall during at least one training exercise RMN sensors were completely fooled by Ghost Rider EW, as well as that during RMN training exercises I've never seen anything about Ghost Rider drones being discovered by the opposing force. That led me to believe that RMN stealth (at least on drones) > RMN sensors.

And I agree completely that it would make zero sense as a standard weapon deployment, something used in every battle situation. But, I can certainly see (in the books alone) many battle scenarios where the ability to sneak in even a half dozen shipkiller armed drones and get basically "free" kilt shots would have substantially changed the engagement. And that where this could be decisive.

A squadron of BCs with DD escorts finds itself up against a division of SDs and lighter escorts. If the BCs were able to get 1 or 2 up the kilt shots on each SD (especially pod layers!) that would decisively change the engagement. Instead of having to run, if they were able to take out 3 of the 4 SDs pod laying hammerheads, its a different story... Or, think of what could happen to a task groups cohesiveness if they outnumber the enemy 2-1, but when they are still hours away from combat they start taking 'random' up the kilt shots that take out nodes and cause damage.

So yes, it would certainly not be a common use weapon. But, having some of them 'up the sleeve' could help a good commander change the odds and either win what should of been a loss or survive what should of been a massacre.

The only time Ghost Rider EW has ever truly fooled RMN sensors, was during Project Anzio, and the full-sized testing of the CLAC and Shrike concept. And Ghost Rider was still an official secret that very few officers even knew about.

After Ghost Rider went fully distributed, I don't recall a single instance of RMN stealth beating RMN sensors. Hemphill tries but she's managed to keep both sides fairly well balanced, and head and shoulders above anybody elses tech.

Somtaaw wrote:The only time Ghost Rider EW has ever truly fooled RMN sensors, was during Project Anzio, and the full-sized testing of the CLAC and Shrike concept. And Ghost Rider was still an official secret that very few officers even knew about.

After Ghost Rider went fully distributed, I don't recall a single instance of RMN stealth beating RMN sensors. Hemphill tries but she's managed to keep both sides fairly well balanced, and head and shoulders above anybody elses tech.

And 1st line navies (the ones you might need to try to pull this trick on to even the odds) have bow and stern walls; so even a hint of a RD trying to sneak into a dead-ahead or dead-astern position would likely cause them to raise the appropriate wall -- which would significantly blunt the attack.

So even if they couldn't localize well enough to take it out with a CM they're not so vulnerable anymore.


OTOH while they're lower accel, there's some risk of the MAlign trying this same trick with Graser torps; their one-shot grasers pack a lot more punch than your average laserhead and their stealth is probably even better that Ghost Rider.

One reason why Mistletoe worked so well was because it was unexpected. So Haven wasn't even trying to look for Mistletoe, never dreamed it might be coming.

Another reason why it worked is because the targets Mistletoe was after were themselves under stealth and not maneuvering. The targeted platforms were not using active sensors, because that would give away their positions. Ships do use active sensors. You will have much harder time getting Mistletoe close enough to a maneuvering ship with active sensors. Not impossible, perhaps, under some circumstances. But not nearly as effective as you may have thought initially.

It will be more useful against relatively stationary targets. Just as the Alignment graser torpedoes were.

If I'm understanding the thought, the problem is that "modern" -- even SLN class detectors would pick up the activation and without high-fractional C plus maneuvering jinks at the end, the drones can't accelerate enough to get the shot before a PDLC or snap shot CM destroys them.

Keep in mind that Thomas Theisman figured out almost instantly what the Mistletoe drones did and how to counter them; it was Apollo's range and accuracy that he couldn't deal with.

That said, if it's a given that you've had time to sneak the drones into "attack range", there's a better use anyway -- pod launch suppression, because only the GA has pod-layers. So Fleet X puts out 10 pods each behind Y SD's... and your drones go back there and ka-bang, No more pods. Buck naked SDs by comparison to even a BC(L) dropping Mark-16G armed oids.

SWM wrote:One reason why Mistletoe worked so well was because it was unexpected. So Haven wasn't even trying to look for Mistletoe, never dreamed it might be coming.

Not quite. Mistletoe worked, because Manticore has always been operating recon drones behind Havenite lines with impunity even before Ghost Rider drones came out to play ball.

After decades of 'seeing' the grav-pulse FTL, but not being able to do anything about them, Haven sort of just stopped paying attention to them. They knew the drones were there, but without the ability to intercept, even with Cimeterre's, it became more of a "those damned Manty drones still around Tactical?" rather than serious "can we lock them up?"

Then Ghost Rider came along, and really put the lock on ignoring the drones... until Mistletoe struck, and threw that mentality of "oh just ignore em" out the airlock.

SWM wrote:One reason why Mistletoe worked so well was because it was unexpected. So Haven wasn't even trying to look for Mistletoe, never dreamed it might be coming.

Another reason why it worked is because the targets Mistletoe was after were themselves under stealth and not maneuvering. The targeted platforms were not using active sensors, because that would give away their positions. Ships do use active sensors. You will have much harder time getting Mistletoe close enough to a maneuvering ship with active sensors. Not impossible, perhaps, under some circumstances. But not nearly as effective as you may have thought initially.

It will be more useful against relatively stationary targets. Just as the Alignment graser torpedoes were.

A better Mistletoe 2.0 would take a bit of the Cataphract and mount a final stage drive on a drone for a short range sneak attack. The ghost rider drones can get within a few light seconds, without being detected, depending on the navy being snuck up upon. That would make a short flight for that last stage that can catch someone off guard. But the cost of that many drones in mass and money, would make anything but a special attack too costly.

I am expecting to see armed recon drones starting to become more utalised in the Honorverse although as others have pointed out there are major technology/tactical hurdles to address first in order to shake down their capabilities.

One idea I do see them being used for is as Spider Drive hunters. Much like submarines Spider ships are very vulnerable once detected and almost any equivalent ship type will likely eat them for lunch. The difficulty of course is finding them. Now at present we have no confirmed methods for detecting the Spider however the Manticorans are the foremost experts in applied grav pulse technology in the galaxy and I see that being the most effective method (possibly a directional grav pulse gets altered a bit when it passes through a Spiders "legs"). However that method works, I could see armed recon drones being used then in much the same way as torpedo boats / hunter killers from WW2 era anti U-boat strategies. The drones can comb regions of space to find a target then saturating it with fire or additional grav pulses to weaken/expose it further. Given the still exploring possibilities of FTL control nodes on Apollo they could even co-ordinate orbit defenses like missile pod screens via a defense picket or Moriarty/Mycroft platform.