HFQ Snippet 27[?] a

isaac_newton wrote:I think that we felt that the 'pass' was non existant, otherwise Wrysham would have driven a froce right down it and taken Serabor from the rear in the days of his ascendency.

Not sure where you're talking about, but the possible pass would be very difficult for a ponderous AOG, but the ICA has demonstrated that it can move along "goat trails" in flanking/surrounding Fort Tairys. It would still be a bad idea to use it because surprise at Guarnak wouldn't offset the disadvantage of letting the force at Fairkyn survive the winter.

Weird Harold wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:I think that we felt that the 'pass' was non existant, otherwise Wrysham would have driven a froce right down it and taken Serabor from the rear in the days of his ascendency.

Not sure where you're talking about, but the possible pass would be very difficult for a ponderous AOG, but the ICA has demonstrated that it can move along "goat trails" in flanking/surrounding Fort Tairys. It would still be a bad idea to use it because surprise at Guarnak wouldn't offset the disadvantage of letting the force at Fairkyn survive the winter.

Doh! sorry , wrong false pass
I was thinking about the pseudo pass thru the Moon Mountains, which apprars to come out near Pairaik, to the east of the Sylmahn Gap.

isaac_newton wrote:Doh! sorry , wrong false pass
I was thinking about the pseudo pass thru the Moon Mountains, which apprars to come out near Pairaik, to the east of the Sylmahn Gap.

There probably is a back-trail pass or "smuggler's path" through the Moon Thorns there. Not something you be able to move anything bigger than a company or two through and keep them supplied.

The possible pass I'm referencing is north of there, between the Ice Ash mountains and Kalgarin Mountains. It's completely hidden by the AOG shield and there is no highroad shown going that route. There's also the Kalgarin river to cross without an obvious crossing like a bridge or city shown.

If there is a pass under that shield, it's not a major pass or considered worth defending by Wyrsham; he either doesn't know about it or considers it impassible by an army, even in summer. That could be a fatal error, given the way BGV's force is equipped. It could also be a "pass too far" for BGV if he tries it and gets caught in the mud or fails to take out Guarnak before Nybar can attack his flank or rear.

Given that Wyrshym has _much_ better maps than we do, if he thinks that area is impassable, I'll go along.

The thought of bypassing Fairkyn and going straight to Ohlarn occurred to me, as well. I'm not sure I like it - it puts Green Valley in the position of the guy stuck between 2 enemies, who has to be relieved before his supplies run out. Even if the high road really does run some distance north of Fairkyn, nobody should take it for granted that Nybar can't interdict it well enough to make it an unreliable supply route - and if he can, he will. Under current conditions, taking even 20-25% of the shipments out of the pipeline will hurt the AoM badly.

What I was wondering was what kind of shape Nybar would be in after even 4-6 weeks with _his_ supplies cut off. Unfortunately, I remembered a bit from an earlier snippet to the effect that Wyrshym has begun stockpiling supplies at Fairkyn: "but he’d begun building up supplies at Fairkyn to support Nybar and the heavier forces he’d earmarked to support him if Green Valley got past Esthyr’s Abbey". [it's in ch11, BTW] In that case, the question becomes how far along is that build up? Not too far, and cutting Nybar off will starve him out, if not as quickly as we'd like - and bypassing him becomes a no brainer. Far enough, and you're looking at cleaning him out Stalingrad-style, only this Stalingrad is sitting on or dangerously close to the main supply line for one of your primary field armies. In that case, there's no choice but to hit him now. You'll still have a nasty urban fight on your hands, but at least it will be against troops degraded by the weather to some degree.

Weird Harold wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:Doh! sorry , wrong false pass
I was thinking about the pseudo pass thru the Moon Mountains, which apprars to come out near Pairaik, to the east of the Sylmahn Gap.

There probably is a back-trail pass or "smuggler's path" through the Moon Thorns there. Not something you be able to move anything bigger than a company or two through and keep them supplied.

The possible pass I'm referencing is north of there, between the Ice Ash mountains and Kalgarin Mountains. It's completely hidden by the AOG shield and there is no highroad shown going that route. There's also the Kalgarin river to cross without an obvious crossing like a bridge or city shown.

If there is a pass under that shield, it's not a major pass or considered worth defending by Wyrsham; he either doesn't know about it or considers it impassible by an army, even in summer. That could be a fatal error, given the way BGV's force is equipped. It could also be a "pass too far" for BGV if he tries it and gets caught in the mud or fails to take out Guarnak before Nybar can attack his flank or rear.

Louis R wrote:Given that Wyrshym has _much_ better maps than we do, if he thinks that area is impassable, I'll go along.

The question is, "does BGV agree?"

The AoG and ICA have different definitions of "impassable."

Weird Harold wrote:

Louis R wrote:Given that Wyrshym has _much_ better maps than we do, if he thinks that area is impassable, I'll go along.

The question is, "does BGV agree?"

The AoG and ICA have different definitions of "impassable."

I'm sure that this is true. But there are limits in all things. I would hope that BGV would bear that in mind. Stll the subject is worth thinking about.

Don

Weird Harold wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:Doh! sorry , wrong false pass
I was thinking about the pseudo pass thru the Moon Mountains, which apprars to come out near Pairaik, to the east of the Sylmahn Gap.

There probably is a back-trail pass or "smuggler's path" through the Moon Thorns there. Not something you be able to move anything bigger than a company or two through and keep them supplied.

The possible pass I'm referencing is north of there, between the Ice Ash mountains and Kalgarin Mountains. It's completely hidden by the AOG shield and there is no highroad shown going that route. There's also the Kalgarin river to cross without an obvious crossing like a bridge or city shown.

If there is a pass under that shield, it's not a major pass or considered worth defending by Wyrsham; he either doesn't know about it or considers it impassible by an army, even in summer. That could be a fatal error, given the way BGV's force is equipped. It could also be a "pass too far" for BGV if he tries it and gets caught in the mud or fails to take out Guarnak before Nybar can attack his flank or rear.

Catchong Nybar out in the open would be BGV's wet dream. The best Nybar can accomplish is to raid BGV's supply line if there is one where he can get at it.

Don

Not as different as all that, when it comes to strategic movement of armies. The ICA and the AoG march on the same thing. Their stomachs. The ICA has a definite edge in speed because it has a real support echelon, but it probably doesn't come to more that 5-10% - and they're not going to be moving those supply wagons and field kitchens across any ground the AoG can't cross, because they've got the same critters pulling them.

Come to think of it, they may not even be that much faster, given the way the Charisians were caught out by how fast the AoG moved once it crossed the border. I suspect that away from a canal line the ICA does have an edge, and they simply hadn't taken the potential value of canals into account, but they may not.

What did catch the AoG out was a completely alien _tactical_ doctrine, combined with a speed of movement at sea that seems to have been totally misread. The were running into the ICA sooner and in greater strength than expected, and didn't have a clue what to do with it when they did.

Weird Harold wrote:

Louis R wrote:Given that Wyrshym has _much_ better maps than we do, if he thinks that area is impassable, I'll go along.

The question is, "does BGV agree?"

The AoG and ICA have different definitions of "impassable."

Louis R wrote:Not as different as all that, when it comes to strategic movement of armies. The ICA and the AoG march on the same thing. Their stomachs. The ICA has a definite edge in speed because it has a real support echelon, but it probably doesn't come to more that 5-10% - and they're not going to be moving those supply wagons and field kitchens across any ground the AoG can't cross, because they've got the same critters pulling them.

Individual squads pull pull their own supplies on sleds in the AOG?

The ICA has demonstrated that they can move sizable forces along "goat trails" to bypass or surround fortresses. They have lighter, man-portable, artillery -- ie mortars -- and, at least in the winter kit, disperse meals and ammo to the squad level to transport them.

Granted, moving over rough ground away from canals means leaving some of the "creature comforts," like field kitchens, behind and relying on pack animals instead of draft animals. The ICA probably can't move the entire logistics train and support over rough ground, but they've demonstrated that they can, and will, move attack forces over terrain that the AOG has deemed impassible.

n7axw wrote:If Nybar started retreating promptly, he would still have several hundred miles of head start on BGV. He would undoubtedly have severe losses to the weather, but he'd probably get away. I doubt that he would be confronting partisan groups like Napoleon did. In fact, the closer he gets to Guernak, the better his supply situation looks because he is moving toward the supply head.

Don

Very true, As an encouragement to retreat, BGV should have the troop in the Sylman just start a little probing and rattling of sabers so to speak . . . just to discourage any reinforcement and transport of supplies toward the new front.