Optimal Charisian Navy (IMHO)

PeterZ wrote:I recognize the drive towards efficiency, Don. I don't believe the logic holds in this context. King Haarald recognized that fact and put his life on the line an inefficient yet symbolic way. He died so that Charis could crush their enemies. Not to be cruel or destructive but to assert an idea and punctuate it deep into the psyches of potential enemies: attack Charis and Charis will not just strike back, we will crush you.

That's why these resource hogs are called the King Haarald's. They aren't the most economical hammer Charis can build to attack the mainland. Economical weapons are rarely as intimidating as uneconomical ones. They are the biggest, baddest hammer Charis could build to bring retribution home to its attackers. Crush one port thoroughly enough and others are intimidated into surrendering.

These ships aren't about fighting economically. They are about being so intimidating, the don't need to fight very often. They are the embodiment of the reputation King Haarald died to galvanize.

Do you really expect it to work out that way? Maybe you are right. We'll see...

Don

Whether it works out that way or not, I believe that was the hope and reason they built these monsters. That and to force their opponents to adapt and innovate or forever be cowed by those massive ships.

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I recognize the drive towards efficiency, Don. I don't believe the logic holds in this context. King Haarald recognized that fact and put his life on the line an inefficient yet symbolic way. He died so that Charis could crush their enemies. Not to be cruel or destructive but to assert an idea and punctuate it deep into the psyches of potential enemies: attack Charis and Charis will not just strike back, we will crush you.

That's why these resource hogs are called the King Haarald's. They aren't the most economical hammer Charis can build to attack the mainland. Economical weapons are rarely as intimidating as uneconomical ones. They are the biggest, baddest hammer Charis could build to bring retribution home to its attackers. Crush one port thoroughly enough and others are intimidated into surrendering.

These ships aren't about fighting economically. They are about being so intimidating, the don't need to fight very often. They are the embodiment of the reputation King Haarald died to galvanize.

Do you really expect it to work out that way? Maybe you are right. We'll see...

Don

PeterZ wrote:Whether it works out that way or not, I believe that was the hope and reason they built these monsters. That and to force their opponents to adapt and innovate or forever be cowed by those massive ships.

I think this was a huge part of it. They were made to drive a point home, as emphatically as possible.

We're not completely sure what RFC's intentions are for the King Harald VIIs. He has said that the 8 inch guns are the main anti-ship battery with the 4 inch guns there for dealing with smaller vessels. Presumably the 10 inch guns are mostly for shore bombardment. But we don't know exactly how they will be used.
While the program is for six ships they are only building three right now. I expect the other three will be completed after the war.
I agree with Dilandau that they do not seem to be a good use of resources. That said RFC seldom has his characters only looking at military considerations either on Safehold or in the Honorverse. They are almost always looking at the political consequences of their actions. Here he has said that they serve the political aim of forcing the rate of technological development. He has not said what other political aims they might serve or what tactical possibilities he has in mind.
But I agree that a larger number of smaller vessels would seem to be a better idea. For shore bombardment monitors and Rendell gunboats and the like would seem a better idea. They can work in much shallower water than the KH VIIs and would be a cheaper way of getting the shore bombardment capacity. The supposed coast defence ships and gunboats that Britain built in the Nineteenth Century were really a shore bombardment force.
I agree that Charis already has a sufficient advantage in capital ships and needs escorts and raider hunters more. Steam powered composite hulled cruisers with at least the smaller ones having sailing rigs would seem more needed and more suitable for this role. That said I disagree with Dilandau about the effectiveness of raiding schooners with a small number of big guns against the Charisian frigates. Both Dilandau and RFC have I believe over estimated the effectiveness of the early shell guns against wooden ships.

JustCurious wrote:We're not completely sure what RFC's intentions are for the King Harald VIIs. He has said that the 8 inch guns are the main anti-ship battery with the 4 inch guns there for dealing with smaller vessels. Presumably the 10 inch guns are mostly for shore bombardment. But we don't know exactly how they will be used.
While the program is for six ships they are only building three right now. I expect the other three will be completed after the war.
I agree with Dilandau that they do not seem to be a good use of resources. That said RFC seldom has his characters only looking at military considerations either on Safehold or in the Honorverse. They are almost always looking at the political consequences of their actions. Here he has said that they serve the political aim of forcing the rate of technological development. He has not said what other political aims they might serve or what tactical possibilities he has in mind.
But I agree that a larger number of smaller vessels would seem to be a better idea. For shore bombardment monitors and Rendell gunboats and the like would seem a better idea. They can work in much shallower water than the KH VIIs and would be a cheaper way of getting the shore bombardment capacity. The supposed coast defence ships and gunboats that Britain built in the Nineteenth Century were really a shore bombardment force.
I agree that Charis already has a sufficient advantage in capital ships and needs escorts and raider hunters more. Steam powered composite hulled cruisers with at least the smaller ones having sailing rigs would seem more needed and more suitable for this role. That said I disagree with Dilandau about the effectiveness of raiding schooners with a small number of big guns against the Charisian frigates. Both Dilandau and RFC have I believe over estimated the effectiveness of the early shell guns against wooden ships.

Pretty sure they are building 6 of them. They originally planned 12, then in the meeting they said they would just build 6 at first. The "Three" comment you are thinking of, probably comes from when Cayleb said the CoGA would get the point from the name of the first 3 made.

The larger number of smaller ships means a larger number of junior engineering officers and ratings. Just how many are available and how many are ready to nursemaid all these new systems independently?

I've always assumed that number started out quite small and are being trained up. A good way to expand that number is brown water operations. New engineers are not that far from land and their supply lines. They learn as they go without the pressure of "it's just us and the deep blue sea". Additional resources are far, far away.

The KH VIIs are big enough and few enough to have reasonably experienced engineers as well as junior engineers to train. They have the capacity to haul all sorts of parts and machine tools to fix things that break down. They have the range to go anywhere the ICN have established or are likely to establish refueling bases.

Logistically, they are more practical as an initial platform for power projection and shore bombardment. Once the number of engineers have increased sufficiently to support a large number of steam ships and there are enough refueling stations scattered around Safehold, smaller ships become practical. Until then consolidating the limited trained crews either where they have access to resources or on big enough platforms to carry those resources with them seems the most logical recourse.

JustCurious wrote:We're not completely sure what RFC's intentions are for the King Harald VIIs. He has said that the 8 inch guns are the main anti-ship battery with the 4 inch guns there for dealing with smaller vessels. Presumably the 10 inch guns are mostly for shore bombardment. But we don't know exactly how they will be used.
While the program is for six ships they are only building three right now. I expect the other three will be completed after the war.
I agree with Dilandau that they do not seem to be a good use of resources. That said RFC seldom has his characters only looking at military considerations either on Safehold or in the Honorverse. They are almost always looking at the political consequences of their actions. Here he has said that they serve the political aim of forcing the rate of technological development. He has not said what other political aims they might serve or what tactical possibilities he has in mind.
But I agree that a larger number of smaller vessels would seem to be a better idea. For shore bombardment monitors and Rendell gunboats and the like would seem a better idea. They can work in much shallower water than the KH VIIs and would be a cheaper way of getting the shore bombardment capacity. The supposed coast defence ships and gunboats that Britain built in the Nineteenth Century were really a shore bombardment force.
I agree that Charis already has a sufficient advantage in capital ships and needs escorts and raider hunters more. Steam powered composite hulled cruisers with at least the smaller ones having sailing rigs would seem more needed and more suitable for this role. That said I disagree with Dilandau about the effectiveness of raiding schooners with a small number of big guns against the Charisian frigates. Both Dilandau and RFC have I believe over estimated the effectiveness of the early shell guns against wooden ships.

An awful lot of people seem to be assuming that Charis expending all its resources on the KH VIIs and not building smaller ships for convoy protection. I don't believe it. I don't think the KH VIIs are significantly impacting other shipbuilding. If Charis is using 6 of its slips to build the King Haarolds, they still have plenty of other slips to build other ships. Yes, each KH takes a lot more resources and construction crews than other ships. But Charis has improved its productivity and manpower a lot. At the same time, I suspect that if they were not building King Haarold's, it would only free up six more construction slips and let them build only six more ships. I suppose they could build two or three smaller ships in succession in each freed slip. If it is a choice between building twelve or eighteen smaller ships and building six King Haarolds, I think the KH is the way to go.

I believe that at this point Charis can have its cake and eat it, too. They can afford to put the effort into KH VIIs, and Cayleb has his reasons to do so.

SWM wrote:An awful lot of people seem to be assuming that Charis expending all its resources on the KH VIIs and not building smaller ships for convoy protection. I don't believe it. I don't think the KH VIIs are significantly impacting other shipbuilding. If Charis is using 6 of its slips to build the King Haarolds, they still have plenty of other slips to build other ships. Yes, each KH takes a lot more resources and construction crews than other ships. But Charis has improved its productivity and manpower a lot. At the same time, I suspect that if they were not building King Haarold's, it would only free up six more construction slips and let them build only six more ships. I suppose they could build two or three smaller ships in succession in each freed slip. If it is a choice between building twelve or eighteen smaller ships and building six King Haarolds, I think the KH is the way to go.

I believe that at this point Charis can have its cake and eat it, too. They can afford to put the effort into KH VIIs, and Cayleb has his reasons to do so.

Generally, even the single KH would be more than Charis could bite. Let's not forget, that the Charisian machinebuilding industry is pretty limited - by the fact, less than a ten years ago it didn't existed at all. And the single KH would consume almost all avaliable industrial reserves, because:

- It's big
- It's pretty complicated
- It must be build with the highest possible standards, or it would simply break apart during launch, or blew boilers during engine tests, or foundered in heavy seas because the quality of work.

And the Charis have only a few factories that could even try to produce the machinery needed (and, frankly, they haven't tools to do it, so firstly the tools should be produced!), and their supply of skilled workforce is pathetic. Moreover, their supply of skilled workforce isn't generally free from other projects; to work on KH's machinery, they wpuld be forced to draw literally all expirienced workers from Charis.

And even to man this ship... They simply have too few steamships in comission, to train mechanics in real numbers. They probably would be forced to take all experienced crews from coastal ironclads, just to have enough mechanics on single KH.

PeterZ wrote: Economical weapons are rarely as intimidating as uneconomical ones. They are the biggest, baddest hammer Charis could build to bring retribution home to its attackers. Crush one port thoroughly enough and others are intimidated into surrendering.

By some strange coinsidence, both world wars were won by economical weapons, not some kind of wunderwaffe (only the nuclear bomb came near, but when it became avaliable, the war was already won). The USA won the Pacific not by some kind of enormously supercarriers, but by a large number of usual, economical carriers and destroyers. The USSR beat Germany not by building some sort of thousand-tonn monster tanks, but by overwhelming number of steadily improved T-34.

Dilandu wrote:Generally, even the single KH would be more than Charis could bite. Let's not forget, that the Charisian machinebuilding industry is pretty limited - by the fact, less than a ten years ago it didn't existed at all.

This would be the Charis that built manufactured goods - including large commercial sailing ships - that were sold the world over?That Charis?

And the single KH would consume almost all avaliable industrial reserves, because:

- It's big
- It's pretty complicated
- It must be build with the highest possible standards, or it would simply break apart during launch, or blew boilers during engine tests, or foundered in heavy seas because the quality of work.

Quality control isn't a brand new concept. The standards for it have gotten a whole lot better since Merlin, but so have the means of enforcing it. It's also well established that Charisian industry has been increasing by leaps and bounds, and that of Emerald, Margaret's Land, and Chisholm haven't been standing still.

At this point, it's moving from what you think Charis ought to be building to claims about what they ought not to be capable of building. That one's another dead horse. You're welcome to flog the poor thing if you must, but I'd thought the basis of this discussion was at least taking RFC's standards for Charisian capabilities as a given and going from there.

And the Charis have only a few factories that could even try to produce the machinery needed (and, frankly, they haven't tools to do it, so firstly the tools should be produced!), and their supply of skilled workforce is pathetic.

Given what RFC's said about Charisian industry and effective tech base, none of these claims seem plausible. Maybe you figure they should be plausible or even incontrovertible, but again, in that case, you're treating yourself to claims that shouldn't even be on the table for this discussion.

Moreover, their supply of skilled workforce isn't generally free from other projects; to work on KH's machinery, they wpuld be forced to draw literally all expirienced workers from Charis.

That's not an impression I've taken from the text at least. If you've got numbers for that, please bring them on, but it still seems like you're reaching for a set of tenets outside this context.

And even to man this ship... They simply have too few steamships in comission, to train mechanics in real numbers. They probably would be forced to take all experienced crews from coastal ironclads, just to have enough mechanics on single KH.

Numbers, please?