Optimal Charisian Navy (IMHO)

I think you overstate the agility of schooners relative to galleons and the nature of their relative stability.

A Safehold schooner tops off at 16-18 mph in reasonable calm seas, iirc. The galleon tops out at 7-10 mph. In terms of closing to the other or escape, that advatange is overwhelming. In terms of combat not so much. The difficulty in hitting a target with a 10 mph relative speed differential is not too bad for either moving target.

That leaves this to ponder. The schooner rolls, yaws and pitches much more extremely than the galleon. That means even if the gunners have the propper firing solution, the schooners' gunners need to time when to fire with significantly greater precision that the galleons'. So even if the difficulty of obtaining the firing solution is worse for the galleon, it has much more flexibility of when to fire. At best these factors cancle out. More likely the schooner gets hit first with the larger round. This assumes both ships are firing swivle mounted guns. If the schooner isfiring broadsides, it is burning toast.

Dilandu wrote:Let's also not forget one thing about KH's. The majority of the mainlands ports are simply too shallow for her to actually go in. For obvious reasons, the mainlanders do not feel the urgent need to deepen the fairway

And with that, the ability of KH's to threaten the coastline is completely depended of is't ability to go near. The long-range bombardments from ship guns aren't very usefull, you know!

The KH VIIs don't need to sail into port. They have the range to flatten the port from whatever depth they need to remain.

PeterZ wrote:I think you overstate the agility of schooners relative to galleons and the nature of their relative stability.

And i think you are underestimated the size problems.

The difficulty in hitting a target with a 10 mph relative speed differential is not too bad for either moving target.

Yes. But the problem is, that the schooner is much smaller than the galleon, so the actual ability to hit her is 3-5 times less.

So even if the difficulty of obtaining the firing solution is worse for the galleon, it has much more flexibility of when to fire.

The simple situation - the schooner is zig-zagging in front of galleon, firing her single big rifle, placed on pivot mpunt in the center of the hull. The galleon were forced to use her single big chaser. Who would succeed?

More likely the schooner gets hit first with the larger round.

Sigh. I really tired of repeating, that the small size actlually matter!

The standart galleon is 2,5-to-3 times bigger that the schooner, and at least 2-to-3 times taller.

Which means, that the target area of the galleon is 5-to-9 times bigger than schooner!

Five-to-nine times bigger. With all respec, galleon isn't five-to-nine times more stable than schooner!And the galleon much less maneuvralbe.

And this means, that the schooner who are far enough to not fear the galleon smoothbores boardside could poud the galleon with her rifle pretty hard. And what you also forgot, is that the schooner wouldn't be alone against galleon. There would be a lot of schooners, a few armed with rifles, and working together they would be able to destroy galleon before it would claim ONE hit!

PeterZ wrote:
The KH VIIs don't need to sail into port. They have the range to flatten the port from whatever depth they need to remain.

Yes, yes. With unlimited barrel life and unlimited ammunition. Because both the barrel life and ammunition are actually pretty limited, we could say that the damage would be excessive, but disperced. I.e. if you want to terrorize the civilian population by bombardment - it would work, but to hit specific targets - it would need a awful lot of ammunition.

The KH VIIs will be obsolete before their guns need to be replaced. Assuming Safehold remains disunited after this phase of the war, each side will build bigger ships before The Return. If this is the final conflict, who needs ocean going super dreadnoughts?

Dilandu wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
The KH VIIs don't need to sail into port. They have the range to flatten the port from whatever depth they need to remain.

Yes, yes. With unlimited barrel life and unlimited ammunition. Because both the barrel life and ammunition are actually pretty limited, we could say that the damage would be excessive, but disperced. I.e. if you want to terrorize the civilian population by bombardment - it would work, but to hit specific targets - it would need a awful lot of ammunition.

Dude, have you ever sailed? Tacking kills your velocity and makes you effectively stationary relative to the enemy. Perfect time for the enemy to shoot. The more zigzagging the more time spent as a stationary target. Oh, btw, the pitching, rolling and yawing doesn't stop even if the tacking or wearing schooner has no relative velocity to its enemy.

5-9 times bigger is also not as overwhelming as it sounds. I guarantee you I would post more hits standing in the bed of a moving truck firing at a target that riding a galloping horse firing the same gun at the same range at a target 5-9 times bigger.

That's the sort of differential in stability we are talking about. The schooner will get in hits but not nearly as many as you assume. The fight will not be neatly ad one sided as you assume at further distances. The schooner gains advantage as it closes. I doubt it will avoid getting hit as it closes.

My friend you are simply enjoying a pipedream.

Dilandu wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I think you overstate the agility of schooners relative to galleons and the nature of their relative stability.

And i think you are underestimated the size problems.

The difficulty in hitting a target with a 10 mph relative speed differential is not too bad for either moving target.

Yes. But the problem is, that the schooner is much smaller than the galleon, so the actual ability to hit her is 3-5 times less.

So even if the difficulty of obtaining the firing solution is worse for the galleon, it has much more flexibility of when to fire.

The simple situation - the schooner is zig-zagging in front of galleon, firing her single big rifle, placed on pivot mpunt in the center of the hull. The galleon were forced to use her single big chaser. Who would succeed?

More likely the schooner gets hit first with the larger round.

Sigh. I really tired of repeating, that the small size actlually matter!

The standart galleon is 2,5-to-3 times bigger that the schooner, and at least 2-to-3 times taller.

Which means, that the target area of the galleon is 5-to-9 times bigger than schooner!

Five-to-nine times bigger. With all respec, galleon isn't five-to-nine times more stable than schooner!And the galleon much less maneuvralbe.

And this means, that the schooner who are far enough to not fear the galleon smoothbores boardside could poud the galleon with her rifle pretty hard. And what you also forgot, is that the schooner wouldn't be alone against galleon. There would be a lot of schooners, a few armed with rifles, and working together they would be able to destroy galleon before it would claim ONE hit!

PeterZ wrote:My friend you are simply enjoying a pipedream.

Yes, yes, yes, i enjopyed the pipedream, all peoples in XIX century enjoyed the pipedreams...

One question, please - from which pipedream are this ship?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... aven_(1856).jpg

Also, may I just assume that torpedo boats couldn't exist? If the size didn't really matter, after all...

Dilandu wrote:

n7axw wrote:
Still, at this moment, the EOC is not going deep into the Gulf of Dohlar out of respect for Thirsk's screw galleys. That will be resolved when Sharpfield gets the Harahlds and the cities ironclads. But it does underscore the vulnerability of the ICN's traditional galleons.

Don

I completely agree with your analysis. Even in the part that the Church is preoccuped with land warfare. But, frankly, the idea of building a large fleet of rifle-armed fast raiders is so very near, that all that they need to do - is to present this idea to Clyntahn in such way, that he would be able to claim that it's his own idea. After all, both Clyntahn, Dushrain and Magwair perfectly understood, that without Charisian help, the Republic would be forced to lock in defense, possibly even retreat back. The most vunerable part of Charisian Empire currenly is their naval communications... and the Group of Four should have at least some data about Deshnarian raiders.

Actually there will be six KHs, but your point is stll valid.

Well, in some future - i agree. But I hope no one is THAT optimistic to think that Charis could build six late-XIX century battleships smutaneously?

For the church question is resourses no matter how much fantasy Clyntahn might indulge in. They need to get every cannon they can build to Wyrshym, Kaitswryth and the Harchongians because if the Alliance keeps coming, it's going to be all over, probably sooner rather than later.

As for how many Haarahds they can build, six were authorized, down from twelve. It really dosn't matter how optimistic we might or might not be, if RFC decides that six are abuildin, than six it is regardless of how realistic it might seem in real life, six were authorized. I'm sure they have six building slips. What textev we have suggests that they are approaching completion, although I don't suppose that means all at the same time.

This is not a real universe, Dilandu. Safehold is a work of fiction. How realistic it is and how much handwavium all depends on how the author decides to write the story.

Don

Dilandu wrote:

PeterZ wrote:My friend you are simply enjoying a pipedream.

Yes, yes, yes, i enjopyed the pipedream, all peoples in XIX century enjoyed the pipedreams...

One question, please - from which pipedream are this ship?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... aven_(1856).jpg

Also, may I just assume that torpedo boats couldn't exist? If the size didn't really matter, after all...

The fact that the torpedo boats relied on torpedoes may be relevant. Battleships weren't terrorized by little ships with big guns. The little ships needed the hard-to-spot explosives that hit below the waterline to do that.

I don't think I would want to ride Dilandu's egg shell in close enough to get a shot against a well handled commerce raider.

The egg shell would certainly have better guns. But there is the matter of aiming, which at sea nobody has really solved. It doesn't do any good to have a rifled cannon that can shoot 8,000 yards if you can't hit the proverbial barn door with it. At current level of tech, everybody still has to close to get hits. And the closer you get, the less effective all of the dodging around Dilandu envisions will be.

Don