The dark side of the good guys

I agree in so far as they didn't have to kill the surrendered troops. Push come to shove, they could have avoided killing them. Charis would have had to give the Desnarii time to redeploy their troops in order to secure the POWs. That means no one outside Charis' high command knows it. Everyone else knows that Charis is playing seriously hard. Which doesn't change Dilandu's point.

n7axw wrote:I disagree that the ICN couldn't have lifted them off. Charis has lots of merchant transport capability. It would only be a question of planning ahead to have that capacity on hand. In fact a good share of those POWs could have been lifted off in Desnairian hulls. IIRC, about half surrendered before they were even fired on.

Nor would there have been any need for abusive behavior. Just POW camps like already exist for the survivors of the Battle of the Markovian Sea.

OR


Find an island and put em ashore with tools to build shelters and then reprovision regularly and have schooners patroling the shoreline to prevent escape. Or maybe strand the whole bunch on Armaggedon Reef without telling them where they are at.

Don

Dilandu wrote:

PalmerSperry wrote:As the Charisians said at the time when the Desnarian said "We didn't turn over prisoners to the Inquisition!" ... "If we lost here today, and Clyntahn demanded we be handed over what would happen?"

Yes, there is anything that you could approve by this logic. Concentration camps, mass executions, xenocide, ect., ect. The fact is, that this logic is ultimately flawed, because, as i mentioned before - it could be used to approve anything.

Now is the threats of killing POW on the pretext that Deshnarians MAY do that if they have the chance. But MAY DO, and actually done is the very different things. On the same pretext, what couldn't be done? Concentration camps? Sure, because you may do the same! Xenocide? Of course, because Clyntahn would do this against Charis, and you are on Clyntahn side - so, because you could possibly do something nasty, we would kill you all. No hard feelings, after all, we are good guys.

Believe me, for my point of view such threat actually make good guys more viable. Because it demonstrated, that they are acting like a real peoples - who made mistakes and do nasty things out of anger and desire to revenge. But is is still the bad thing, that the good guys threatened to done to innocent party.

This logic is NOT flawed. Desnair has already proven that it will obey the injunctions of the CoGA, in the fact that a) they are building a navy for them b) have sent a large portion of their army to fight in Siddermark. This says to me that what the CoGA wants, the CoGA gets. And if the CoGA wants Desnair's Charisian prisoners, then Desnair will hand them over. As for the threat of killing the prisoners, Cayleb has basically already used that threat against Thirsk to force his surrender at Armageddon Reef. Charis is in a fight for its life. They cannot take parole from anyone because an oath sworn to one you view as a heretic is invalid, so the choice is, keep them prisoner or kill them. Whether or not they could have brought enough transport is neither here nor there, the fact is they didn't, and even if they had, they probably didn't have enough resources to guard them or feed them while they transported them.

n7axw wrote:I disagree that the ICN couldn't have lifted them off. Charis has lots of merchant transport capability. It would only be a question of planning ahead to have that capacity on hand. In fact a good share of those POWs could have been lifted off in Desnairian hulls. IIRC, about half surrendered before they were even fired on.

Nor would there have been any need for abusive behavior. Just POW camps like already exist for the survivors of the Battle of the Markovian Sea.

OR


Find an island and put em ashore with tools to build shelters and then reprovision regularly and have schooners patroling the shoreline to prevent escape. Or maybe strand the whole bunch on Armaggedon Reef without telling them where they are at.

Don

You may disagree, but the man on the spot decided that he couldn't. It was not an option for him.

The DARKNESS OF LANGHORN & SCHULER & THE GROUP OF FOUR OVERSHADOWS ANY DARK SIDE OF THE GOOD GUYS.

Expert snuggler wrote:Is anyone else troubled that Merlin doesn't simply kill Church thugs, but fills their final seconds in this life with terror and an attack on their lifetime of faith?

Taking his side for a moment, there are things he needs to get off his chest, and he can only tell them to someone who will take them to the grave. Still, telling the dying that they are about to go to Hell is an unnecessary cruelty.

There's a parallel in our history to the order to kill Inquisitors on sight, and looking back it's now considered to have been a war crime.

On other occasions the good guys have put their ideals into practice. The perpetrators of the Delferahk massacre got trials and went to the gallows with benefit of clergy, for example.

This, btw, is good writing! Ugly wars constantly tempt people to show their worst side. Our host is realistic to show it happening.

Will the good guys catch themselves and pull themselves back before reaching the moral event horizon?

Consider the equivalency: The condemned Inquisitors insisted their opponents - even minor children - were the spawn of heretics and blasphemers who deserved nothing less than death by the prescriptions of Schuler based on nothing more than residency in a town where a barge explodes due to an accident. A death of public torture designed to force them to admit their evil blasphemy and recant while every bone in their bodies was shattered is pure evil unlike the simple declaration of TRUTH that the priests who perpetrated that evil are bound for hell.

I fail to see anything approaching evil or cruelty in Merlin's message to the priests - that their entire life's work is based on a malicious lie. The TRUTH is light and never cruel - it's simply the Truth. It's up to GOD to decide the Priest's destination after death. Merlin is simply arranging the meeting while eliminating their ability to torture more children.

Of far more concern is the moral consequence of Merlin's failure to be more proactive in the elimination of Inquisitors. Merlin should utilize his abilities - transportation, superior weapons, stealth and speed - to dispatch every Inquisitor on Safehold as quickly as possible. Thousands of Safeholdians die and suffer while Merlin fails to bring the war to rapid conclusion.

Does Merlin have a soul?
As an immortal is this PICA bound by fear of death and any potential for eternity in hell?
Is Nimue already in Heaven or Hell?

Hard to imagine any character or his minions more deserving of eradication and eternal damnation than Jasphar Klynton. Even if his followers came by their belief in the Holy Writ honestly based on a Faith in GOD and the belief that Shan-Wei was darkness personified, that's something they can take up with the creator when they arrive at the COGA equivalency with the pearly gates. Their evil is Langhorn's evil and God evidently allowed it to prosper.

If we had the power to eliminate zealots who practice suicide Jihad in the name of Allah or those who bomb and murder family planning employees to avenge unwanted fetuses would it be a moral failure to allow them to continue? If I were Merlin I would walk into the Temple in Zion in disguise and put a sword through the hearts of the Gang of Four and every Inquisitor I could find ASAP. The inquisition believes that torture and death in the most painful and horrific manner is for the good for the souls of the blasphemers so shouldn't they be grateful for the truth and the cleansing pain?

The rapid death of the Group of Four would save 1000's of lives and ruin the book but it would be the most moral thing a soulless PICA could do IMHO. Isn't everything leading to the moment where Merlin will expose the writ of Langhorn for the lie it is? Won't that be the ultimate cruelty for all of the misled faithful?

The DARKNESS of the COGA on SAFEHOLD is so pervasive that the elimination of every vestige of the COGA is bound to bring more goodness and light no matter what the circumstances. The soulless machine that is Merlin is a bright beacon of good light in a sea of evil darkness designed into the DNA of the Planet Safehold by Langhorn. The destruction of the Group of Four and the minions of Schuler by any means is an absolute moral good.

THE COGA is a LIE - and the destruction of that lie will likely make every resident of Safehold question the existence of GOD. But trying to draw some equivalency between morality and GOD/religion is a dicey proposition - I think that's the point of the series. Exposing EVIL for what it is brings the LIGHT and shreds the darkness. TRUTH is LIGHT - even the cruel TRUTH.

The religions of EARTH have far less direct evidence of the Will of GOD than the evidence planted on Safehold. One could argue that the Safehold series is primarily concerned with the evil of religion and it's tenuous relationship to morality and "goodness". There is no shortage of evidence of the destructive influence of religious zealotry and the evil it presents.

. “Religion is not merely the opium of the masses, it's the cyanide.” Tom Robbins
"The Divine was expansive, but religion was reductive. Religion attempted to reduce the Divine to a knowable quantity with which mortals might efficiently deal, to pigeonhole it once and for all so that we never had to reevaluate it. With hammers of cant and spikes of dogma, we crucified and crucified again, trying to nail to our stationary altars the migratory light of the world.

Thus, since religion bore false witness to the Divine, religion was blasphemy. And once it entered into its unholy alliance with politics, it became the most dangerous and repressive force that the world has ever known."
TOM ROBBINS SKINNY LEGS AND ALL

aurabass wrote: If I were Merlin I would walk into the Temple in Zion in disguise and put a sword through the hearts of the Gang of Four and every Inquisitor I could find ASAP.

Have you actually read the books?

I don't think a single book has left out Merlin musing on how he can't even get REMOTES into the temple without possibly waking up what is under the temple, and/or the OBS.

Dilandu wrote:

Believe me, for my point of view such threat actually make good guys more viable. Because it demonstrated, that they are acting like a real peoples - who made mistakes and do nasty things out of anger and desire to revenge. But is is still the bad thing, that the good guys threatened to done to innocent party.

You bring up an excellent point, and I'm glad you did because I hadn't really thought about it before.

Let me reason by analogy, and believe me when I say I don't know where I'm going. Safehold has a set of conventions for warfare that has been generally agreed to through usage. They don't know about the Geneva Conventions because they aren't aware of Earth, so let's call these conventions the Gianyva Conventions. Most nations are signatories. Those who act against the Gianyva Conventions are anathematized. Not anathematized in the Safeholden sense, but more in the modern Earthen sense.

In certain circumstances Gianyva (Zion) can suspend the Gianyva Conventions, and they have done so in the immediate unpleasantness.

Suppose that the United States and Russia went to war with each other, and suppose that Geneva suspended the Convention that prisoners of war wounded would receive medical attention. Suppose that the United States captured some wounded Russian soldiers, that they could have provided medical treatment, and that they chose not to because...they're evil. Or vice versa.

The question is, how do we view The United States's actions? What's left after the Geneva Conventions are suspended?

The only thing that occurs to me are what are sometimes known as crimes against humanity, as separate from the Geneva Conventions.

Are these the things that the winner imposes on the loser? Are there any other options?

~Tonto

Isilith wrote:

aurabass wrote: If I were Merlin I would walk into the Temple in Zion in disguise and put a sword through the hearts of the Gang of Four and every Inquisitor I could find ASAP.

Have you actually read the books?

I don't think a single book has left out Merlin musing on how he can't even get REMOTES into the temple without possibly waking up what is under the temple, and/or the OBS.

I just love the "How stupid are you?" implication of "Have you actually read the books?" Such condescending deserves a thorough reply.

NO actually I listen to the books on Audible and I've listened to the entire series multiple times.

The problem with using technology or SNARKS to infiltrate the Temple is a completely different situation from having Merlin change his appearance to emulate anyone with access to the Temple. It's clear that Merlin has the capacity to alter his/her appearance and to move with a speed and stealth that would make it almost impossible for anyone in the Temple guard to stop him if he/she wished to eliminate the Group of Four inside their lavish apartments. If he only chose to target Jasphar it would likely be enough to greatly relieve the population of Safehold from the worst of the atrocities that face them.

That said I completely understand why the author does not chose this route but the problem with some sensor in the Temple recognizing a SNARK is not relevant. However 'waking up whatever is under the Temple" is an interesting problem. What are we to suspect? Do we think that Jasphar or the Group of Four has control of whatever that is? Can they choose to aim that at Charis or all of Safehold outside of Zion and Harchong? I haven't heard anything that suggests Jasphar or the Group of Four has the power to control the Rakuri or the atomic power of the bombardment platforms. If they had that power Jasphar would certainly have used it on Charis already.

Since that power is evidently geared to destroy emergent technologies on some kind of preset variables set up by Langhorn - (this is why Merlin tested steam engines away from population zones) - the key to avoiding triggering whatever is under the Temple or the Rakuri has to do with technology. So the question would be - is a PICA capable of setting off this attack and if it is where is that attack aimed?

I disagree with Merlin about the use of the SNARKS in the Temple since the SNARKS report to OWL in the Mountains of Light - not to Charis. So why would the bombardment platforms target Charis?

ALL that said my reply was regarding the morality with which MERLIN constantly wrestles - and the question raised in the the OP of this thread. My opinion is that it is more moral for MERLIN to eliminate as much of the inquisition as possible as soon as possible to end the atrocities visited on the people of Safehold and if I were Merlin I would don a disguise and personally go after Jasphar. But that would not make for anywhere near as long and enjoyable a read.

But according to the SAFEHOLD Wiki "Throughout his existence Merlin retained the ability to modify his appearance at will." and "As a PICA, Nimue Alban possessed the ability to modify her physical appearance, sex, and basic outward attributes at will
" Based on this ability I presume that Merlin has the capacity to choose some individual with Temple access and get quite close to that appearance. Once inside the Temple Merlin's speed and stealth would make it possible to get within striking distance of Jasphar. Even if that "woke up whatever is under the Temple" the question becomes: what would that which is under the Temple attack? Why would a PICA in the TEMPLE threaten Charis? How would it know that Merlin is operating on behalf of Charis?

Merlin seems reticent to use his/her power for direct action against the Group of Four. Outside of his attack on the semphore stations prior to the canal attack and taking out the Schuler priests who visited such atrocity on the poor villagers where the barge exploded and gunning down the guard when he rescued Princess Iris and Prince Divan - he/she has refrained from direct action in at least part due to a moral reticence. Since this thread concerns morality my view is that any action that eliminates Jasphar sooner rather than later is highly moral because it will end in a net result of justice and reduced suffering.
So keep your "did you actually read the books?" comments where they belong. This in an opinion forum and there is no need to question the intelligence of those who offer their opinions. I don't know you and don't really care to -but this kind of personal "are you stupid?" "did you read the books?" attack is unwelcome and immature.

aurabass wrote:The problem with using technology or SNARKS to infiltrate the Temple is a completely different situation from having Merlin change his appearance to emulate anyone with access to the Temple.

Merlin's body (PICA) is built with the same Terran Federation technology as the SNARCs, so the problems that prevent him using the SNARCs prevents him from going in person -- or even going into areas of Zion close to the Temple. A point the Merlin has pondered in nearly every book.

Weird Harold wrote:

aurabass wrote:The problem with using technology or SNARKS to infiltrate the Temple is a completely different situation from having Merlin change his appearance to emulate anyone with access to the Temple.

Merlin's body (PICA) is built with the same Terran Federation technology as the SNARCs, so the problems that prevent him using the SNARCs prevents him from going in person -- or even going into areas of Zion close to the Temple. A point the Merlin has pondered in nearly every book.

Actually Merlin does not know what technology triggers the bombardment platforms - he/she speculates and tests the limits as was done with the steam engines.

The real question is what becomes the target if a technology is a trigger? That question has been on my mind since early in the series. Say the entity or technology that triggers the bombardment platform is activated by a SNARK or can somehow ascertain the presence of a molycirc (sic?) brain inside a PICA -then what becomes the target? It seems most likely that the technology that drives the PICA is not unlike the technology that drives the AI that controls the bombardment platforms. It has to be similar - a version of a computer or artificial intelligence. So if such a technology shows up inside the Temple how can the AI inside the Temple use the bombardment platforms to destroy it? -

It seems that this is something that will eventually be risked since I can't see any way that anyone besides Merlin could get into the Temple under croft to access the AI and attempt to turn it off. I don't think there is anyone yet revealed inside the COGA who is in control of the bombardment platform control AI. So if Safehold is going to break the ban on technological advancement in order to confront the Gababa someone is going to have to defeat the bombardment control AI and that entity will likely have to be Nimue -since no one else on Safehold has the remotest idea what an AI is or how to hack it.

aurabass wrote:
I just love the "How stupid are you?" implication of "Have you actually read the books?" Such condescending deserves a thorough reply.

NO actually I listen to the books on Audible and I've listened to the entire series multiple times.

The problem with using technology or SNARKS to infiltrate the Temple is a completely different situation from having Merlin change his appearance to emulate anyone with access to the Temple. It's clear that Merlin has the capacity to alter his/her appearance and to move with a speed and stealth that would make it almost impossible for anyone in the Temple guard to stop him if he/she wished to eliminate the Group of Four inside their lavish apartments. If he only chose to target Jasphar it would likely be enough to greatly relieve the population of Safehold from the worst of the atrocities that face them.

That said I completely understand why the author does not chose this route but the problem with some sensor in the Temple recognizing a SNARK is not relevant. However 'waking up whatever is under the Temple" is an interesting problem. What are we to suspect? Do we think that Jasphar or the Group of Four has control of whatever that is? Can they choose to aim that at Charis or all of Safehold outside of Zion and Harchong? I haven't heard anything that suggests Jasphar or the Group of Four has the power to control the Rakuri or the atomic power of the bombardment platforms. If they had that power Jasphar would certainly have used it on Charis already.

Since that power is evidently geared to destroy emergent technologies on some kind of preset variables set up by Langhorn - (this is why Merlin tested steam engines away from population zones) - the key to avoiding triggering the Rakuri has to do with technology. So the question would be - is a PICA capable of setting off this attack and if it is where is that attack aimed?

I disagree with Merlin about the use of the SNARKS in the Temple since the SNARKS report to OWL in the Mountains of Light - not to Charis. So why would the bombardment platforms target Charis?

ALL that said my reply was regarding the morality with which MERLIN constantly wrestles - and the question raised in the the OP of this thread. My opinion is that it is more moral for MERLIN to eliminate as much of the inquisition as possible as soon as possible to end the atrocities visited on the people of Safehold and if I were Merlin I would don a disguise and personally go after Jasphar. But that would not make for anywhere near as long and enjoyable a read.

But according to the SAFEHOLD Wiki "Throughout his existence Merlin retained the ability to modify his appearance at will." and "As a PICA, Nimue Alban possessed the ability to modify her physical appearance, sex, and basic outward attributes at will
" Based on this ability I presume that Merlin has the capacity to choose some individual with Temple access and get quite close to that appearance. Once inside the Temple Merlin's speed and stealth would make it possible to get within striking distance of Jasphar. Even if that "woke up whatever is under the Temple" the question becomes: what would that which is under the Temple attack? Why would a PICA in the TEMPLE threaten Charis? How would it know that Merlin is operating on behalf of Charis?

Merlin seems reticent to use his/her power for direct action against the Group of Four. Outside of his attack on the semphore stations prior to the canal attack and taking out the Schuler priests who visited such atrocity on the poor villagers where the barge exploded and gunning down the guard when he rescued Princess Iris and Prince Divan - he/she has refrained from direct action in at least part due to a moral reticence. Since this thread concerns morality my view is that any action that eliminates Jasphar sooner rather than later is highly moral because it will end in a net result of justice and reduced suffering.
So keep your "did you actually read the books?" comments where they belong. This in an opinion forum and there is no need to question the intelligence of those who offer their opinions. I don't know you and don't really care to -but this kind of personal "are you stupid?" "did you read the books?" attack is unwelcome and immature.

Whoa there, guy. I agree that the remark shouldn't have been made. As far as possible we should all restrict our remarks to the substance at hand without personalizing our comments in a negative way. But the other side of it is to have a thick enough skin to shrug off what can be the rough and tumble of the way we go at things in the forums when we get really engaged. Without that our skin would be raw a good deal of the time!

I loved your rant on the COGA and the inquisition, by the way. Couldn't have said it better myself!

In terms of the rest of your comment, I think Merlin would say that there is no way for him to justify his bad behavior by the inquisition's bad behavior. Trying to do that is sometimes called projection. I can't say that because you behave badly it's ok for me to act the same way and then say it's all your fault that I acted this way because you did it first.

In short, to be a moral man, I must act morally regardless of how the other guy acts. I am responsible for myself.

Merlin struggles with what happens when his very understandable rage gets away with him and feels bad about what happens later. Unlike the inquisitors, he's not looking for a get out of jail free card from God or anybody else.

I hope someone has welcomed you to the forums. If not let me do so and invite you to belly up to the vitual bar for a virtual drink of your choice. It's on the house!

Don