Relative size of combatants

Jonathan_S wrote:Without fairly sophisticated tension controls having towers sticking out the side of the cliff holding a near vertical cable don't help with the "elevator problem" because they can't revive the upper cable of the need to support the entire weight of the lower cable (plus the weight of the cargo)

When you run a lengthy fairly horizontal cable across a series of vertical supports they each take some of the weight and the cable need only support the load and the weight of the cable between any two adjacent towers.
But with a vertically hung cable the intermediate towers just hold it away from the cliff. They don't transfer the vertical force into the rock; that's all done at the top tower/anchor.

Before I dive off into the technical details, I want to say a couple things:

1) We have no evidence of a pre-existing ropeway system used during the excavation of the gap. And as they came in from the side it's possible that they didn't need one; they could have kept blasting the rocks down into the slowly lengthening cut then hauling them out on the road they were cutting.

2) Your later post finally let me understand one of your proposals, and see it would be technically possible to construct a ropeway running horizontally but parallel to the cliff face.
But if one doesn't already exist I doubt it's easier or safer to construct one, while Arcana holds the far side of the portal, that is it to secure the gap. And after securing that road and railway you don't have need to construct a ropeway down.


Now onto the technical details:
The amount of weight a ropeway can move between two towers is a function of the cable angle between then. At nearly horizontal angles the entire weight of the cargo transfers to the heavy fixed cables than run between towers. As they don't move they can be easily tensioned so that the towers takes the entire force and it isn't transferred to rest of the cable. The fixed cables to sag some, so the moving cable need to impart enough force to not just overcome friction, but to drap the load up angle of the cable's sag into the next tower; however the force required is still quite low.

But as you increase the cable angle less and less of the weight transfers into the fixed cables and more and more has to be taken by the moving cable. And what's worse, the moving cable can't be easily tensioned at each tower so it ends up carrying an increasing fraction of it's own weight as well as the increasing fraction of the cargo weight.

The corollary to that is that the steeper the ropeway the less weight it can carry. And as it goes past 45-50 degrees it begins to act more like an elevator rather than a ropeway.

But that force transfer vs angle is also why for a given tech level an elevator will always have to be shorter and/or carry less payload than a more horizontal ropeway.

Now you can lessen the rise angle by pushing the support tower further back; but at some point you run into a crossover point where the total suspended mass of the cable segment becomes too much and making it longer to flatten out the slope no longer helps and begins to hurt. (Unless you can break it into two segments by installing an intermediate tower to terminate the fixed cable segments at)


But all this means that unless you can show how the terrain allows for the necessary slope and support towers you can't just point to ropeways in general and claim they can work in any particular situation (much less that ropeways of a given length prove you can have elevators of that length)


For instance your earlier suggestion that you could just have a ropeway sticking out perpendicular from the cliff. That would have required a base tower at least 3000 feet out from the base of the cliff, with the terrain offering no practical spot for intermediate towers. This results in a 4500+ foot long, unsupported, cable segment rising at roughly 45 degrees; which appears to be excessively long for that angle of fall.

Ropeways to enable construction sites

Our cable cranes show a clear advantage for all complex construction sites – where access for heavy machinery to deliver tons of construction material and construction equipment is almost impossible.

Difficult terrain that can be opened only with large time and financial expenses building access-roads, but could reached quickly and cost-effectively through the use of our systems.

Material ropeways do not only allow a quick and safe transportation of goods to the designated points, but permit a continuous operation schedule 24/7 on throughout the whole year.

Material cable-cranes are applicable in all sorts of geographical locations – high mountains, forest, over rivers, lakes or other landscapes, but as well in all kind of climatic conditions – from snowy mountains, to rainforests and dry deserts. They can be used for almost all kind of construction sites: mountain construction sites, pipeline construction, bridge construction and in forestry.

A material ropeway is ideal for operations where a safe, fast and above all efficient transportation of heavy loads is required.

It is a bicable bidirectional type of ropeway technology operates under motor power design and builds by the engineers of Nepal using locally available materials. The system is installed as prototype for human transportation connecting Kotre, Tanahun and Punditar, Kaski over Seti River having 520m with 25m level difference. At that section, numerous efforts of bridge construction was in vain due to technical infeasibility. So ropeway technology for river crossing is the best at such long span. The technology is also economical considering construction as well as operation cost for the span greater than 450 meters.

brnicholas wrote:The statement that the railway did not reach the cut until it was completed is either a misunderstanding of a text on our part or a continuity error on David and Linda's part. While their are a couple of texts which imply that the railroad didn't reach Fort Salby until after first contact with the Sharonans it is clearly established and a major plot point that all the sidings used to hold railroad cars and equipment while the cut was being dug and Fort Salby was the end of the rail line are still at Fort Salby!

From the prologue of Hell Hath No Fury, "the remaining buildings of Salbyton had a look of permanency and solidity which was rare this far from Sharona, and the local railroad station had quite literally miles of heavyduty sidings left from its days as the end of the TTE's line."

From Chapter 32 of Hell Hath No Fury, "Chan Geraith had seen the endless lines of work cars, portable machine shops, flatcars loaded with bulldozers and scrapers, passenger cars, portable sawmills, auxiliary steam engines, loads of unused rails and ties, bolts, spikes, hammers, pickaxes. . . . The list seemed endless, and the cars and work locomotives filled the extensive sidings left behind when TTE finished construction of the Traisum Cut almost to capacity."

Nicholas

Mil-tech bard wrote:brnicholas,

See "Hell's Gate" Chapter 34, pages 456 thru 459.

The TTE Railways arrival at the Traisum Cut long after the Sharonan survey team is wiped out and avenged isn't implied.

It was both stated as fact by the Calirath Crown Prince Janiki and is a major plot point to push Voice Kinlafia to Sharona -- to be a politician and protector of Janiki's sister per Janiki's Glimpse -- before the attack on Ft Salby.

brnicholas wrote:The statement that the railway did not reach the cut until it was completed is either a misunderstanding of a text on our part or a continuity error on David and Linda's part. While their are a couple of texts which imply that the railroad didn't reach Fort Salby until after first contact with the Sharonans it is clearly established and a major plot point that all the sidings used to hold railroad cars and equipment while the cut was being dug and Fort Salby was the end of the rail line are still at Fort Salby!

From the prologue of Hell Hath No Fury, "the remaining buildings of Salbyton had a look of permanency and solidity which was rare this far from Sharona, and the local railroad station had quite literally miles of heavyduty sidings left from its days as the end of the TTE's line."

From Chapter 32 of Hell Hath No Fury, "Chan Geraith had seen the endless lines of work cars, portable machine shops, flatcars loaded with bulldozers and scrapers, passenger cars, portable sawmills, auxiliary steam engines, loads of unused rails and ties, bolts, spikes, hammers, pickaxes. . . . The list seemed endless, and the cars and work locomotives filled the extensive sidings left behind when TTE finished construction of the Traisum Cut almost to capacity."

Nicholas

Nothing in the passage above necessarily makes the Hell's Gate passage a "continuity error", as "completion of the RAILWAY" was not given a date.

Hell's Gate makes clear that the TTE railway had not reached Salbyton until months after the Andaran Scouts wiped out the Sharonan survey team, and the PAAF wiped out the Andaran Scouts in turn.

The heavy civil engineering of removing the rock in the Traisum Cut, to have a workable railway grade through the mountain, happened before the railway arrived.

That this is not the sequence I'd logically expect does not change the fact this sequence is tightly tied to a major plot point to get Voice Kinlafia to Sharona before the attack on Ft. Salby.

brnicholas wrote:The first passage I quoted says the sidings were "left from its days as the end of the TTE's line." The second passage I quoted says explicitly that the sidings at Salbytown were "left behind when the TTE finished construction of the Traisum cut." I don't see any possible interpretation of those passages other then that the TTE was running standard gauge trains to Fort Salby while the Traisum cut was being dug.

I think the passage Mil Tech bard is thinking of means that work crews to build the railroad past Fort Salby didn't arrive at Fort Salby until after the battle of Fallen Timbers.

Nicholas

Mil-tech bard wrote:brnicholas,

See "Hell's Gate" Chapter 34, pages 456 thru 459.

The TTE Railways arrival at the Traisum Cut long after the Sharonan survey team is wiped out and avenged isn't implied.

It was both stated as fact by the Calirath Crown Prince Janiki and is a major plot point to push Voice Kinlafia to Sharona -- to be a politician and protector of Janiki's sister per Janiki's Glimpse -- before the attack on Ft Salby.

brnicholas wrote:The statement that the railway did not reach the cut until it was completed is either a misunderstanding of a text on our part or a continuity error on David and Linda's part. While their are a couple of texts which imply that the railroad didn't reach Fort Salby until after first contact with the Sharonans it is clearly established and a major plot point that all the sidings used to hold railroad cars and equipment while the cut was being dug and Fort Salby was the end of the rail line are still at Fort Salby!

From the prologue of Hell Hath No Fury, "the remaining buildings of Salbyton had a look of permanency and solidity which was rare this far from Sharona, and the local railroad station had quite literally miles of heavyduty sidings left from its days as the end of the TTE's line."

From Chapter 32 of Hell Hath No Fury, "Chan Geraith had seen the endless lines of work cars, portable machine shops, flatcars loaded with bulldozers and scrapers, passenger cars, portable sawmills, auxiliary steam engines, loads of unused rails and ties, bolts, spikes, hammers, pickaxes. . . . The list seemed endless, and the cars and work locomotives filled the extensive sidings left behind when TTE finished construction of the Traisum Cut almost to capacity."

Nicholas

Nothing in the passage above necessarily makes the Hell's Gate passage a "continuity error", as "completion of the RAILWAY" was not given a date.

Hell's Gate makes clear that the TTE railway had not reached Salbyton until months after the Andaran Scouts wiped out the Sharonan survey team, and the PAAF wiped out the Andaran Scouts in turn.

The heavy civil engineering of removing the rock in the Traisum Cut, to have a workable railway grade through the mountain, happened before the railway arrived.

That this is not the sequence I'd logically expect does not change the fact this sequence is tightly tied to a major plot point to get Voice Kinlafia to Sharona before the attack on Ft. Salby.

Mil-tech bard wrote:Jonathan_S,

This:

[snip previous quotes on ropeways]

...is one of those places we are going to have to disagree.

The most important point here is the text says no railways were used in the construction of the cut.

The railway came after the cut was complete.

So if there are no railways, there was no way to deliver to the cut the huge TTE cranes, steam shovels and other equipment extended and articulated rail cars can deliver.

That leaves something else.

Now some of the links to photos and slides of the most likely something else -- ropeways and cable ways. The following are examples of both heavy construction and as transportation --

1. Ropeways in heavy duty civil engineering from the LCS Cable Cranes web site.

Material Ropeways

http://www.lcs-cablecranes.com/transpor ... l-ropeway/

The rotating photos at the link above shows the application of the technology to mountainous heavy duty civil engineering. The photo of the ropeway digging out of a mountain cut is spot on for Traisum applications.

This is the accompanying LCS promotional text --

Ropeways to enable construction sites

Our cable cranes show a clear advantage for all complex construction sites – where access for heavy machinery to deliver tons of construction material and construction equipment is almost impossible.

Difficult terrain that can be opened only with large time and financial expenses building access-roads, but could reached quickly and cost-effectively through the use of our systems.

Material ropeways do not only allow a quick and safe transportation of goods to the designated points, but permit a continuous operation schedule 24/7 on throughout the whole year.

Material cable-cranes are applicable in all sorts of geographical locations – high mountains, forest, over rivers, lakes or other landscapes, but as well in all kind of climatic conditions – from snowy mountains, to rainforests and dry deserts. They can be used for almost all kind of construction sites: mountain construction sites, pipeline construction, bridge construction and in forestry.

A material ropeway is ideal for operations where a safe, fast and above all efficient transportation of heavy loads is required.

2. From the "howtopedia" the Construction of Aerial Ropeways in Nepal


Construction of Aerial Ropeways - Nepal

See Figure 6 for a photo of a small Hydro-powered ropeway transport system with a guyed tower.

http://en.howtopedia.org/wiki/Construct ... ys_-_Nepal

3. A paper from the Nepal Ministry of Peace and Reconstruction.

Paper on Graduating Upwards from Suspension Bridges to Ropeways and Cable Cars:
Nepal's Experience and Expertise
by Bhim Updhyaya
23 Nov 2014

See the photos in slides 24 thru 32 of the presentation and in particular several examples of exceedingly long cableways without intermediate towers, guyed or otherwise.

http://www.slideshare.net/BhimUpadhyaya ... m-updhyaya


4. The Seti River Ropeway, 450 meter length, no intervening towers

Mechanized Bridge (River Crossing Passenger Ropeway)

http://www.gridnepal.org.np/project_det ... ion-c.html

Mil-tech bard; continued wrote:

It is a bicable bidirectional type of ropeway technology operates under motor power design and builds by the engineers of Nepal using locally available materials. The system is installed as prototype for human transportation connecting Kotre, Tanahun and Punditar, Kaski over Seti River having 520m with 25m level difference. At that section, numerous efforts of bridge construction was in vain due to technical infeasibility. So ropeway technology for river crossing is the best at such long span. The technology is also economical considering construction as well as operation cost for the span greater than 450 meters.