The dark side of the good guys

n7axw wrote:

ETathome wrote:Something to remember about this topic is that this is a religious war. In such a conflict, justice is often the first casualty. It's not the journey through the war that concerns me, but the aftermath. How do the governments and individuals react to what was done? Do they justify it or seek absolution?

Ethan

Yes. This is a religious war. But it is also a war to preserve and enhance the power of Zhasphar Clyntahn. That will become appa.rent not only to his enemies but to his allies. Religion is being used to cement his power.

Don

I believe the conversation between Tahvys Sahnfyrd and Byndfyrd Raihmahnd in October in Cherayth, Chisholm is illustrative. Byndfyrd's position is, I believe, the conclusion where most Reformists will arrive. They simply haven't done so yet. Byndfyrd was a close friend of Duke Halbrook Hallow for decades. He is a supporter of the CoGA but believes they must be compelled to change and that the Reformed Church will likely never reconcile with the Church of Charis.

For my position, the worst thing that good guys done, is the threating to burn Deshnarian POW's onboard their ships at Iiythria. The excuse for this threats was astonishingly lame - because "if the Charisian would became prisoners of Deshnarians, the Deshnarians would surrender them to the Inquisition".

But they didn't done this yet!Deshnarians MAY do this, but there is a great difference between "may do" and "actualy done" exist.

Cayleb and Sharleyan was always very firm against "pre-emptive actions" against Temple Loyalists, because "they would not punish peoples for something that they didn't actually do". The Dunkyn Yairley seems to have another point of view, and perfectly ready to at least threaten such actions.

Dilandu wrote:For my position, the worst thing that good guys done, is the threating to burn Deshnarian POW's onboard their ships at Iiythria. The excuse for this threats was astonishingly lame - because "if the Charisian would became prisoners of Deshnarians, the Deshnarians would surrender them to the Inquisition".

But they didn't done this yet!Deshnarians MAY do this, but there is a great difference between "may do" and "actualy done" exist.

Cayleb and Sharleyan was always very firm against "pre-emptive actions" against Temple Loyalists, because "they would not punish peoples for something that they didn't actually do". The Dunkyn Yairley seems to have another point of view, and perfectly ready to at least threaten such actions.

Agreed, except in that situation, Sir Dunkyn was only the messenger boy. The originator was Admiral Staynair.

What they should have done was gather those people off to POW camps. Now they are manning Temple raiders on EOC commerce.

Don

n7axw wrote:
Agreed, except in that situation, Sir Dunkyn was only the messenger boy. The originator was Admiral Staynair.

What they should have done was gather those people off to POW camps. Now they are manning Temple raiders on EOC commerce.

Don

And now the raider crews have additional reasons to folight Charisians to the death. Now Deshnarians have a good reasons to believe, that in case of Charisian victory, the Empire may face a wave of mass terror, forced relocations, concentration camps and other "just in case". After all, Charisian already used the threat of mass POW murder under the pretends that "Deshnarian may do something nasty"! For the Deshnarian point of view, the Charisians who are ready to punish him "just in case" are no better than Inquisition, who may do the same.

n7axw wrote:

Dilandu wrote:For my position, the worst thing that good guys done, is the threating to burn Deshnarian POW's onboard their ships at Iiythria. The excuse for this threats was astonishingly lame - because "if the Charisian would became prisoners of Deshnarians, the Deshnarians would surrender them to the Inquisition".

But they didn't done this yet!Deshnarians MAY do this, but there is a great difference between "may do" and "actualy done" exist.

Cayleb and Sharleyan was always very firm against "pre-emptive actions" against Temple Loyalists, because "they would not punish peoples for something that they didn't actually do". The Dunkyn Yairley seems to have another point of view, and perfectly ready to at least threaten such actions.

Agreed, except in that situation, Sir Dunkyn was only the messenger boy. The originator was Admiral Staynair.

What they should have done was gather those people off to POW camps. Now they are manning Temple raiders on EOC commerce.

Don

If I recall correctly, the ICN was not practically able to take them off as prisoners at that point. So the options were entirely to let them go or take a parole that would either be renounced immediately (leaving them subject to execution by Charis if ever found in arms against them again) or kept (leaving them subject to denunciation as heretics and subjected to the Punishment).

Threatening to kill the prisoners bought Staynair the evacuation of the city so the destruction of the port infrastructure could go on without more loss of life in a bombardment.

I don't hold much hope that the subtleties of the situation will get across to those crews or later raiders, so the effects in terms of solidifying fight-to-the-death attitudes among some mainlanders you're worried about are still a problem. And while I do think the tack Staynair took there is defensible - it did save lives, after all - it was an ugly thing and underlines just how much the relative civility of some wars isn't possible in this one. Unfortunately, that's the tune the Temple's called for this dance, and there's only so far Charis and Siddarmark can go to keep it from being as bad as can be.

JeffEngel wrote:Threatening to kill the prisoners bought Staynair the evacuation of the city so the destruction of the port infrastructure could go on without more loss of life in a bombardment.

The problem is, that he threaten this against Deshnarians, that - if i recall properly - wasn't actually done anything particulary nasty against Charisian this time. The Dohlarans do; and such threat against Dohlar may be legitimate. But for the Deshnarian point of view, they didn't do anything to inflict such threats. And the motivation of this case... is the sort of motivation, that Clyntahn may use; you better surrender, or we started to do nasty things.

Dilandu wrote:The problem is, that he threaten this against Deshnarians, that - if i recall properly - wasn't actually done anything particulary nasty against Charisian this time. The Dohlarans do; and such threat against Dohlar may be legitimate. But for the Deshnarian point of view, they didn't do anything to inflict such threats. And the motivation of this case... is the sort of motivation, that Clyntahn may use; you better surrender, or we started to do nasty things.

As the Charisians said at the time when the Desnarian said "We didn't turn over prisoners to the Inquisition!" ... "If we lost here today, and Clyntahn demanded we be handed over what would happen?"

The difference between the Desnarians and Dohlarians is that the latter have already stained their honour whilst the former *know"* they'd do it as soon as Clyntahn asked.

Since taking them as POWs was impossible that left either paroling then (and dealing with "fight to the death to avoid a recapture proving breach of parole") or setting them free and doing a resisted-assault on the city. This way those Desnarians *can* surrender at a future date.

There where no good options, only bad options & worse options.

PalmerSperry wrote:As the Charisians said at the time when the Desnarian said "We didn't turn over prisoners to the Inquisition!" ... "If we lost here today, and Clyntahn demanded we be handed over what would happen?"

Yes, there is anything that you could approve by this logic. Concentration camps, mass executions, xenocide, ect., ect. The fact is, that this logic is ultimately flawed, because, as i mentioned before - it could be used to approve anything.

Now is the threats of killing POW on the pretext that Deshnarians MAY do that if they have the chance. But MAY DO, and actually done is the very different things. On the same pretext, what couldn't be done? Concentration camps? Sure, because you may do the same! Xenocide? Of course, because Clyntahn would do this against Charis, and you are on Clyntahn side - so, because you could possibly do something nasty, we would kill you all. No hard feelings, after all, we are good guys.

Believe me, for my point of view such threat actually make good guys more viable. Because it demonstrated, that they are acting like a real peoples - who made mistakes and do nasty things out of anger and desire to revenge. But is is still the bad thing, that the good guys threatened to done to innocent party.

I disagree that the ICN couldn't have lifted them off. Charis has lots of merchant transport capability. It would only be a question of planning ahead to have that capacity on hand. In fact a good share of those POWs could have been lifted off in Desnairian hulls. IIRC, about half surrendered before they were even fired on.

Nor would there have been any need for abusive behavior. Just POW camps like already exist for the survivors of the Battle of the Markovian Sea.

OR


Find an island and put em ashore with tools to build shelters and then reprovision regularly and have schooners patroling the shoreline to prevent escape. Or maybe strand the whole bunch on Armaggedon Reef without telling them where they are at.

Don

Dilandu wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Threatening to kill the prisoners bought Staynair the evacuation of the city so the destruction of the port infrastructure could go on without more loss of life in a bombardment.

The problem is, that he threaten this against Deshnarians, that - if i recall properly - wasn't actually done anything particulary nasty against Charisian this time. The Dohlarans do; and such threat against Dohlar may be legitimate. But for the Deshnarian point of view, they didn't do anything to inflict such threats. And the motivation of this case... is the sort of motivation, that Clyntahn may use; you better surrender, or we started to do nasty things.

Just remember that the COGA and the inquisition are really pulling the strings here, whether we are talking about the Desnairan, the Dohlarians, the Harchongese or whoever. The Temple is serving as paymaster and puppet master. And church banners wave above the national flag on all those ships.

What this means is that if Dohlar has turned over Charisians and Desnair hasn't, it is only because Desnair has had no prisoners to give.

Don