Why didn't Wylsynn's used the Stone against Group of Four?

Re-reading the books i think about the interesting possibility. Why dind't Wylsynn family used the Stone of Schueller as a "weapon" against Group of Four?

Just think about that. The Stone is the well-known legendary artifact, that is assumed lost after the Saint Evrahard. It is well known, how it looks and what it supposed to do.

So, why Wyslynn's couldn't "miracliously found" the siant artifact, and present it to Vicarate, making as much noise as possible about it? Of course, the Stone would be tested, but even the Clyntahn would be wery cautious to claim that something that look like the Stone of Schueller and work like the Stone of Shueller is "shaing-wei dark magic"; even his own Inquisitors would hardly support him against the artifact of Archangels themselves!

And, when the Stone would be verified as authentic - or, at least, "as authentic as possible" (which would probably be the best that Group of Four could do to lessen the impact) - it would be natural to demand, that any witnesses about the "Charisian heresy" should be tested on the sacred artifact.

"Surely, the respected Grand Inquisitor would not oppose a purely formal verification of his claims about the Charisian heresy? Why, he shouldn't be afraid to testimony with his hand on the Holy Stone - after all, he is the Grand Inquisitor... Clyntahn, are you really refusing to testimony on Stone? Brother vicars, the honest man would not be afraid to lay his hand on Archangel's Own relic. Put Zasphar Clyntahn to the Question immediately - he is either a liar, or the heretic! "

The trouble with the stone is that it only tests what you personally believe. It is possible, and I believe it is likely, that Clyntahn truly and sincerely that the Charisians are heretics, that his fellow reform-minded vicars are traitors, and that any action he takes against them is justified as god's work. The stone might get him to admit some of the actions he took that other people find reprehensible, but I doubt it would get him to admit that he's knowingly acting against God's teachings because for all intents and purposes he believes he is God.

Tararoys wrote:The trouble with the stone is that it only tests what you personally believe. It is possible, and I believe it is likely, that Clyntahn truly and sincerely that the Charisians are heretics, that his fellow reform-minded vicars are traitors, and that any action he takes against them is justified as god's work. The stone might get him to admit some of the actions he took that other people find reprehensible, but I doubt it would get him to admit that he's knowingly acting against God's teachings because for all intents and purposes he believes he is God.

If they didn't care enough to get it far, far away from the Temple with Paityr, and they could count on getting to use it before an effective vicarate not cowed by the Inquisition, they could still use it effectively on Rayno, for instance: "Was that a fair and accurate vote count for Grand Inquisitor?", "Are you in possession of blackmail material useful for influencing the Vicarate?", and so on.

Those just look like huge if's.

"The trouble with the stone is that it only tests what you personally believe. It is possible, and I believe it is likely, that Clyntahn truly and sincerely that the Charisians are heretics,"
*****
"Charisians are heretics", which is more true than he could possibly know, unless Grand Inquisitors have access to information/tech that we don't know about, yet.

Steve

SHV wrote:"The trouble with the stone is that it only tests what you personally believe. It is possible, and I believe it is likely, that Clyntahn truly and sincerely that the Charisians are heretics,"
*****
"Charisians are heretics", which is more true than he could possibly know, unless Grand Inquisitors have access to information/tech that we don't know about, yet.

Steve

Well, the question like that may not work. But for example the question "are the evidience about the Charisian herescy accurate" would work perfectly, because Clyntahn knew that they aren't accurate at all. At the very least, the presence of the Stone would force the Group of Four to act much more carefully - because they simply couldn't avoid the testimony on the Stone for any particular reason. At most, it may actually turn the vicarate and all Church personnel - even the inquisition - against Group of Four.

Dilandu wrote:Re-reading the books i think about the interesting possibility. Why dind't Wylsynn family used the Stone of Schueller as a "weapon" against Group of Four?

Well, in order to use it, you'd first be in a position to question members of the Go4. There might have been a time, several decades ago, when that was possible for a Wylsynn. But not in the last few years.
The most likely outcome of Samyl Wylsynn revealing the existence of the Stone of Schueler, would have been an immediate move by Clyntahn to confiscate it. Obviously, an object of such holy pedigree can't be left in the hands of any vicar but belongs to the institutional successors of Schueler himself - i.e. the Inquisition.
And if you then think about what Clyntahn would've done with the Stone, you might consider Samyl's decision to send it off with Paityr a very good idea indeed...

We have to remember a number of things both about the Stone of Schueler and about the political situation within the Church itself.

First, the Stone is not a perfect lie detector. In a society with a medieval mindset it might seem to be the case but Merlin knows its limitations. It cannot ferret out an unknown lie i.e. if someone was lied to without his knowledge and simply repeats a lie someone else told him, it wouldn't be able to discern it. And certain mental illnesses (probably anything that causes a person to lose touch with reality) would return contradictory results. All of this would be exposed after several years of intensive use to make its operators realize that a "divine" device had limits, which would seem strange enough in and of itself. Yet had the Wylsyns' used it a lot, eventually someone "adventurous" in the family would be willing to experiment with it to discover those limitations. The next natural step would be to figure out whether the Stone could somehow be deceived. Indeed, that is exactly what Merlin did when first confronted with it - knowing its limitations, he addressed Paityr's real, spiritual questions fully thus discouraging him from asking the sort of questions which might have exposed him.

But the greater problem in using it openly within the Church would have been that no one in the Church hierarchy would have wanted it used. Church corruption had already become a given and for the Wylsyns to present it to the Council of Vicars, and demand that it be used to vet Church officers and clergymen, would likely have brought about a scramble to suppress its use, no matter how public its existence was made. Indeed, they would likely have voted to remove it from the Wylsyn's custody and place it on a pedestal in the Chamber, guarded around the clock and never be used "because it is so sacred". Samyl would have had to be Grand Inquisitor to make use of it and even then only secretly (for churchmen who were already under arrest for example and not likely to say anything in public).

thanatos wrote:And certain mental illnesses (probably anything that causes a person to lose touch with reality) would return contradictory results.

Although the Wylsynns didn't know it, this right here is the prime reason why the Stone won't work on Clyntahn.

It's been noted several time throughout the series that Clyntahn has a specific form of insanity where he can convince himself that any self serving lie is the truth, even when he should know the real truth.

Against this kind of mental illness, there's no way in hell that the Stone would work properly on Clyntahn.

evilauthor wrote:

thanatos wrote:And certain mental illnesses (probably anything that causes a person to lose touch with reality) would return contradictory results.

Although the Wylsynns didn't know it, this right here is the prime reason why the Stone won't work on Clyntahn.

It's been noted several time throughout the series that Clyntahn has a specific form of insanity where he can convince himself that any self serving lie is the truth, even when he should know the real truth.

Against this kind of mental illness, there's no way in hell that the Stone would work properly on Clyntahn.

By the time Clyntahn is in hell, no one would care...

Don

thanatos wrote:We have to remember a number of things both about the Stone of Schueler and about the political situation within the Church itself.

First, the Stone is not a perfect lie detector. In a society with a medieval mindset it might seem to be the case but Merlin knows its limitations. It cannot ferret out an unknown lie i.e. if someone was lied to without his knowledge and simply repeats a lie someone else told him, it wouldn't be able to discern it. And certain mental illnesses (probably anything that causes a person to lose touch with reality) would return contradictory results. All of this would be exposed after several years of intensive use to make its operators realize that a "divine" device had limits, which would seem strange enough in and of itself. Yet had the Wylsyns' used it a lot, eventually someone "adventurous" in the family would be willing to experiment with it to discover those limitations. The next natural step would be to figure out whether the Stone could somehow be deceived. Indeed, that is exactly what Merlin did when first confronted with it - knowing its limitations, he addressed Paityr's real, spiritual questions fully thus discouraging him from asking the sort of questions which might have exposed him.

But the greater problem in using it openly within the Church would have been that no one in the Church hierarchy would have wanted it used. Church corruption had already become a given and for the Wylsyns to present it to the Council of Vicars, and demand that it be used to vet Church officers and clergymen, would likely have brought about a scramble to suppress its use, no matter how public its existence was made. Indeed, they would likely have voted to remove it from the Wylsyn's custody and place it on a pedestal in the Chamber, guarded around the clock and never be used "because it is so sacred". Samyl would have had to be Grand Inquisitor to make use of it and even then only secretly (for churchmen who were already under arrest for example and not likely to say anything in public).

Can you imagine what an accurate, working lie detector would do in today's world of justice and politics? I wonder if that is the reason more work hasn't gone into the PET or fMRI based lie detector.

-- Bob G