Sell Off of Church Property

Expert snuggler wrote:I wonder if Safehold lawyers have any maxim comparable to "In time of war the law falls silent".

They might not given that their source of law is a global and (formerly) universally recognized Church.

They actually believe their source of Law is Divine, not simply from a church that asserts the law's divinity. Everyone knows that divine beings brought the law directly from God's will.

Who are mere mortals to suspend the law's influence?

Kytheros wrote:

Dilandu wrote:Again, it would make happy a lot of generations of layers, that would be hired to negotiate this disput. If it wasn't de jure nationalisation of the property, than the legal status is doubtful. What means "renamed themselves the Church of Charis and retained the Church properties"? In that case, if someone renamed himself The Grand Overlord of Church of Old Charis and claimed the main Tesselberg cathedral as his own property, this would be legal? I doubt that.

The problem is, that - by the Safeholdian point of view - all this legal situation is unprecedent. During wartime the situation would not be the main point of view, but when the war ended...

When the war ends, either Charis has lost, in which case the buyers get the properties, or what's left after the conquest of the Empire, or Charis is victorious, in which case, it is highly unlikely that Imperial Courts will recognize the CoGA's sale of Church of Charis properties as valid transactions (the CoGA would effectively have been committing fraud), and probably won't recognize the sale of any contested Temple Loyalist Church properties within the Empire either.

What about the third possibility--a negotiated peace?

Dilandu wrote:Again, it would make happy a lot of generations of layers, that would be hired to negotiate this disput. If it wasn't de jure nationalisation of the property, than the legal status is doubtful. What means "renamed themselves the Church of Charis and retained the Church properties"? In that case, if someone renamed himself The Grand Overlord of Church of Old Charis and claimed the main Tesselberg cathedral as his own property, this would be legal? I doubt that.

The problem is, that - by the Safeholdian point of view - all this legal situation is unprecedent. During wartime the situation would not be the main point of view, but when the war ended...

Kytheros wrote:When the war ends, either Charis has lost, in which case the buyers get the properties, or what's left after the conquest of the Empire, or Charis is victorious, in which case, it is highly unlikely that Imperial Courts will recognize the CoGA's sale of Church of Charis properties as valid transactions (the CoGA would effectively have been committing fraud), and probably won't recognize the sale of any contested Temple Loyalist Church properties within the Empire either.

SWM wrote:What about the third possibility--a negotiated peace?

A negotiated settlement means that the CoGA lost, even if Charis didn't win outright. It also means that the CoGA (or whoever is in charge of negotiations on the non-Charis/Siddarmark side) isn't in a position to require the Empire (or Siddarmark) to honor sales of Church property in their territories by the CoGA. And neither the Empire nor Siddarmark is going to be inclined to do so - after all, the Church of Charis/the Reformists are actively using those properties.

It sounds to me like offering to sell swampland before the swamp is drained and is still full of alligators... No sale here.

Don

n7axw wrote:It sounds to me like offering to sell swampland before the swamp is drained and is still full of alligators... No sale here.

Don

It's worse than that. The alligators are beating on the supposed Real Estate Office's door to... um, discuss the finer details of who actually owns the swamp.

Kytheros wrote:

Dilandu wrote:Again, it would make happy a lot of generations of layers, that would be hired to negotiate this disput. If it wasn't de jure nationalisation of the property, than the legal status is doubtful. What means "renamed themselves the Church of Charis and retained the Church properties"? In that case, if someone renamed himself The Grand Overlord of Church of Old Charis and claimed the main Tesselberg cathedral as his own property, this would be legal? I doubt that.

The problem is, that - by the Safeholdian point of view - all this legal situation is unprecedent. During wartime the situation would not be the main point of view, but when the war ended...

Kytheros wrote:When the war ends, either Charis has lost, in which case the buyers get the properties, or what's left after the conquest of the Empire, or Charis is victorious, in which case, it is highly unlikely that Imperial Courts will recognize the CoGA's sale of Church of Charis properties as valid transactions (the CoGA would effectively have been committing fraud), and probably won't recognize the sale of any contested Temple Loyalist Church properties within the Empire either.

SWM wrote:What about the third possibility--a negotiated peace?

A negotiated settlement means that the CoGA lost, even if Charis didn't win outright. It also means that the CoGA (or whoever is in charge of negotiations on the non-Charis/Siddarmark side) isn't in a position to require the Empire (or Siddarmark) to honor sales of Church property in their territories by the CoGA. And neither the Empire nor Siddarmark is going to be inclined to do so - after all, the Church of Charis/the Reformists are actively using those properties.

I don't think it is quite that cut and dried. The status of Church property could easily be a part of the negotiated settlement. I am mention it only because it is a possible result which you neglected.

Kytheros wrote:A negotiated settlement means that the CoGA lost, even if Charis didn't win outright

Why?

Dilandu wrote:

Kytheros wrote:A negotiated settlement means that the CoGA lost, even if Charis didn't win outright

Why?

Because the ONLY way that the CoGA would even TRY to negotiate, would be if the allies were kicking the ever loving crap out of them and knocking on their door.

Because Clyntahn put them in a position where their entire future rests on a complete victory.

If Charis survives, then anyone else with a grievance will realize that they could rebel too.

Dilandu wrote:

Kytheros wrote:A negotiated settlement means that the CoGA lost, even if Charis didn't win outright

Why?

I should probably have said that a negotiated settlement means that the CoGA as run by the Group of Four has lost.

The CoGA has declared Holy War against the Empire of Charis/Church of Charis and its allies. Proclaimed them Heretics.
You do not have a negotiated settlement to end a Holy War with Heretics. It's victory or national death/genocide/extermination if you've been classed as the Heretics, and if you're on the side that declared them Heretics, your only (acceptable) options are victory or grinding oneself against the enemy to your own destruction/organizational collapse/inability to continue fighting.

Dilandu wrote:Again, it would make happy a lot of generations of layers, that would be hired to negotiate this disput. If it wasn't de jure nationalisation of the property, than the legal status is doubtful. What means "renamed themselves the Church of Charis and retained the Church properties"? In that case, if someone renamed himself The Grand Overlord of Church of Old Charis and claimed the main Tesselberg cathedral as his own property, this would be legal? I doubt that.

The problem is, that - by the Safeholdian point of view - all this legal situation is unprecedent. During wartime the situation would not be the main point of view, but when the war ended...

Kytheros wrote:When the war ends, either Charis has lost, in which case the buyers get the properties, or what's left after the conquest of the Empire, or Charis is victorious, in which case, it is highly unlikely that Imperial Courts will recognize the CoGA's sale of Church of Charis properties as valid transactions (the CoGA would effectively have been committing fraud), and probably won't recognize the sale of any contested Temple Loyalist Church properties within the Empire either.

SWM wrote:What about the third possibility--a negotiated peace?

Kytheros wrote:A negotiated settlement means that the CoGA lost, even if Charis didn't win outright. It also means that the CoGA (or whoever is in charge of negotiations on the non-Charis/Siddarmark side) isn't in a position to require the Empire (or Siddarmark) to honor sales of Church property in their territories by the CoGA. And neither the Empire nor Siddarmark is going to be inclined to do so - after all, the Church of Charis/the Reformists are actively using those properties.

SWM wrote:I don't think it is quite that cut and dried. The status of Church property could easily be a part of the negotiated settlement. I am mention it only because it is a possible result which you neglected.

Sure ... it technically could be ... but if/when there is a negotiated settlement, it is Charis that will have functionally all of the leverage. The negotiators for the Temple/CoGA-aligned factions won't have any leverage to get the sales of former CoGA/Temple properties to be considered valid transactions - in the view of the Empire/Republic, all of those properties are rightfully owned by the Church of Charis/Reformist Church, and even if a particular property is in the hands of Temple Loyalists, I doubt the Empire would recognize the sale.

However you rate the likelihood of a negotiated settlement, it doesn't change the fact that a negotiated settlement means that the Empire/Republic are in a position of strength, their opponents are in a position of weakness, the Go4 has likely collapsed (or at least, Clyntahn is out of the picture), and the Empire/Republic's opposition at the negotiating table is going to be more concerned with talking the Empire/Republic out of taking capitals than recognizing the sale of, say, the Bishop's Palace in Tellesburg by the CoGA.


In Honorverse terms, it's a bit like the Peeps trying to negotiate an end to the war after/during Operation Buttercup (without the assassination of Cromarty), but having auctioned off government assets in systems that were taken by the RMN to various personal/corporate entities to help fund the war - after the RMN had taken the systems in question.