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Leonard Detweiler SD size

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Leonard Detweiler SD size
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:07 pm

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Something occurred to me, and I wanted to check with the forum to see if there's a problem in the logic.

RFC has posted that the LD's are capital ships and that they are intended and expected to be able to stand up to other people's capital ships. "Stand up to" in terms of "blow away with impunity because they cannot be seen" isn't an impossible reading, but it has seemed forced. On the other hand, with no wedge, no sidewalls, no bubble wall, no buckers, and pokey speed, it's been hard to see how they can defend themselves effectively, or even run for it in many circumstances, if they are detected.

Here's where the question comes up: is there any reason they can't manage a stand-up fight, if it comes to that, on account of being just ridiculously huge, with far more armor, particle shielding, electronic warfare systems, active defenses, and possibly decoys, than any impeller drive starship?

Impeller drive starships are size capped, more or less, by the inertial compensator and how its efficiency plummets over 8.5 million tons or so. Bigger than that, and you're a pokey fortress: technically mobile but really just enough for slight maneuvering and (e.g.) frustrating ballistic missile shots.

Spider drive starships, however, aren't using an inertial compensator. They're just using massive grav plating, and if there's any reason to think that grav plating suffers an efficiency plunge with too much of it, I'm not aware of it, and even if there is, it may not be at as "low" a tonnage as the inertial compensator. Similarly, the proportion of a unit dedicated to a hypergenerator seems to go down with tonnage, though absolute tonnage on it will go up still with more tonnage. So the hypergenerator isn't putting a cap on it. (If other navies had a compelling reason to, they could presumably build a hypergenerator into a fortress and call it a monitor perhaps - but it'd blow chunks for combat with its lousy speed and lack of stealth.)

Two other indirect reasons to think the LD's may be really, really large:

Sharks are 4 million tons and were never meant to be deployed operationally - they were meant as pure proof-of-concept models. 4 million tons still isn't small. If practical, you'd want to prove the concept with a full-size model. If the LD's were only 8 million tons or so, a full-size model would have been quite practical: longer to build than the Shark and more expensive, granted, but not so much so that you'd opt out of getting something that would be a perfect model and, incidentally, an actual instance of the class intended for use. This suggests that LD's are much larger still, and the 4 million ton Shark represents a much smaller fraction of the build time and expense of a LD.

Relatedly: LD's are taking a long time to build. It's mentioned repeatedly, but the Shark's don't seem to be just off the ways either, and if the LD's would only take a bit longer than Sharks to build - say, 12-18 months more - I would have thought some of them would have been completed by (e.g.) the after-action review of the Sharks following OB.

One last meta reason: ridiculously large Leonard Detweiler SD's, drifting invisible through space, ready to do the bidding of evil overlords, would be wonderfully ominous. It's not a reason to build them that way for the Alignment, but it may be a reason for RFC to make things so that the Alignment has reason to build them.
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Re: Leonard Detweiler SD size
Post by kzt   » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:41 pm

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It's been discussed on and off for years here. David isn't talking.
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Re: Leonard Detweiler SD size
Post by munroburton   » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:50 pm

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It does have a bubble sidewall, I believe. It just can't accelerate while the bubble is active - similar to how RMN ships cannot accelerate when they have a full bow/stern wall engaged.

The lowest estimate I've seen is 8MT, with the highest being around 36MT. It's hard to say whether this is pushing it, as some forts were sized at around 16MT - I think they're around 12, but concede there's no real limit as long as they're not tying themselves down to a compensator's mass limit.

I'm wondering if it's some kind of sieging/raiding unit designed to cross the hyper limit at a high fraction of C, tuck behind its bubble, active defenses and armour, on a ballistic course, engaging naval assets and orbital infrastructure as they come into range.
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Re: Leonard Detweiler SD size
Post by Kytheros   » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:02 pm

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One other thing worth noting is that they supposedly can fire graser torps via internal "tubes", not the external racks that the Sharks used.

The Lenny Dets are going to be freaking huge.

Pretty sure that they're basically superhuge forts with hyperdrives. IIRC they will (probably) have bubblewall generators, but can't use the spider while bubbled - not that it'd make much difference.
I think RFC said something that could have been taken to more or less imply that they'll have at least alpha nodes so that they can use warshawski sails and grave waves (and thus sufficiently high-mass ceiling wormholes).
They'll probably be 20+ megatons, maybe as much as 30mt. The only limit on size, assuming they have warshawksi sail capability, is what wormholes you need them to get through. If that is not a factor, the only limit is your budget and how big you're willing to go. And the MAlign doesn't think small.
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Re: Leonard Detweiler SD size
Post by Valen123456   » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:12 pm

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I think the question of size of the Leonard Deitweilers is going to be based around, "what is this size going to be used for?"

In traditional ship design, warships are sized around an elaborate ever juggling balances between main/secondary ship type functions, weapons load-out and ammunition storage, crew size and survival requirements, ship durability, hyperdrive, power requirements etc.

The Sharks are said to be between a battleship and dreadnought in size. There are I believe several distinct reasons for this: -
-They use a pod based attack method (although i do not believe they have ever been called pod-layers directly), requiring all the hollow core or equivalent factors.
-They use larger than normal weapons (Graser Torps, missile pods, MDM equivalents), all of which need to be fitted in with everything else taking up space.
-They do not need hammerheads and are proportionately wider and squatter in shape to better accommodate their trilateral symmetry and vertical deck alignment.
-They need much thicker armor and damage absorbing sections to somewhat counterbalance their lack of traditional defenses like sidewalls and wedge. Their sophisticated stealth systems (similar if not quite as elaborate or extensive as the Ghost Recon ships, again no direct evidence) probably take up quite a lot of room too.
-It is possible (my hypothesis) that they use the Streak drive for hyperspace travel and Streaks are specifically said to be much larger than traditional hyper-generators and would need some big reactors to drive them.
-All this tech probably needs a lot of crew to maintain and since Spider ships are slow to accelerate and their stealth based doctrine means they are often deployed for long periods, means they need to be capable of supporting that large crew for all that time, needing lots of resources, power, food, accommodation, all of which needs space too.
-The Sharks are also test-beds used to train people in this new type of combat and the Alignment wants to make a big fleet to enforce/protect their new order (even if the Spider fleet is current to be held in reserve while the Renaissance Factors SDF's and new fleet do the early legwork). The best way to build up a big force quickly is either to have lots of small training "school" (in this case Spider ships) you can funnel people through quickly, or several big ones to accommodate lots at once. The Sharks maybe intermediate in that regard (not wallers but bigger than battlecruisers).

Now take all these attributes and design a ship that is actually big enough to pose a really critical combat force, enforce, hunt and attack over long distances without a supply train, need a super-massive set of defenses to overcome some non-traditional weaknesses, carry larger than normal weapons etc. Its no wonder that they will be bigger than average warships of a similar type (even though this comparison is not quite right since Spider ships are more like space going submarines than the big gun battleship / guided missile cruisers of most Honorverse warships).
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Re: Leonard Detweiler SD size
Post by drothgery   » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:13 pm

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munroburton wrote:It does have a bubble sidewall, I believe.
There's absolutely no textev or Word of RFC for this.
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Re: Leonard Detweiler SD size
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:33 pm

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drothgery wrote:
munroburton wrote:It does have a bubble sidewall, I believe.
There's absolutely no textev or Word of RFC for this.

No, RFC did confirm the bubble sidewall.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Leonard Detweiler SD size
Post by Kytheros   » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:34 pm

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drothgery wrote:
munroburton wrote:It does have a bubble sidewall, I believe.
There's absolutely no textev or Word of RFC for this.

There's (at minimum) indirect Word of Weber that spider drive cannot be used while a bubble sidewall is active that can be taken as implying the Lenny Dets will have bubble sidewalls. You loose most stealth and effectively all maneuverability when you active the bubblewall, though, and you're basically operating like a fort at that point.
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Re: Leonard Detweiler SD size
Post by drothgery   » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:24 pm

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Kytheros wrote:
drothgery wrote:There's absolutely no textev or Word of RFC for this.

There's (at minimum) indirect Word of Weber that spider drive cannot be used while a bubble sidewall is active that can be taken as implying the Lenny Dets will have bubble sidewalls. You loose most stealth and effectively all maneuverability when you active the bubblewall, though, and you're basically operating like a fort at that point.
It would seem to me that confirming you can't use the spider and a bubble sidewall at the same time is more likely an argument against spider ships having a bubble sidewall than for one....
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Re: Leonard Detweiler SD size
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:15 pm

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drothgery wrote:
Kytheros wrote:There's (at minimum) indirect Word of Weber that spider drive cannot be used while a bubble sidewall is active that can be taken as implying the Lenny Dets will have bubble sidewalls. You loose most stealth and effectively all maneuverability when you active the bubblewall, though, and you're basically operating like a fort at that point.
It would seem to me that confirming you can't use the spider and a bubble sidewall at the same time is more likely an argument against spider ships having a bubble sidewall than for one....

It depends on how massive the bubble sidewall generators will be; how important they would be for the overall defense; and how skippable acceleration is for a LD while taking fire.

I think we can assume they have the mass for it. I think we can reasonably guess either way on the questions about how much good it would do and how terrible losing acceleration while having it up would be. Or just shrug and figure those aren't questions about which we have enough to judge either way.
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