Sell Off of Church Property

We know that Ducheran is planning to sell off church property in the Charesian empire at steep discounts in order to help pay for the war. However, there's a small problem with this, the Temple Loyalists still exist in all of the parts of the empire, and they still presumably control some of the property being sold off. Will buyers actually be able to enforce the sale before the end of the war? And how will the Temple Loyalists feel about legally losing access to their remaining property? Of being quite literally sold out by the temple?

blackjack217 wrote:We know that Ducheran is planning to sell off church property in the Charesian empire at steep discounts in order to help pay for the war. However, there's a small problem with this, the Temple Loyalists still exist in all of the parts of the empire, and they still presumably control some of the property being sold off. Will buyers actually be able to enforce the sale before the end of the war? And how will the Temple Loyalists feel about legally losing access to their remaining property? Of being quite literally sold out by the temple?

The Temple position seems to be anyone in the EoC who is not a guerrilla is a heretic. A Temple Loyalist who remains a loyal enough subject of heretic rulers is, by Clyntahn's lights, a contradiction in terms, and Clyntahn's position rules the day.

If the war is won and there are recognized Temple Loyalists in the (then former) EoC alive, there may be some colossal property swapping based on seized non-Church property there.

Buyers certainly won't be able to claim that property before the end of the war, or if the war isn't a resounding Temple victory. That's why it is discounted.

I don't think any Temple Loyalist inside the EoC cares to think about how they are regarded by the Temple to which they are nominally loyal. They are, in practice, either a conservative sort of Reformist but in the closet about it, or faking any loyalty to their crown to serve as Temple agents.

Generally speaking, all this selling was a "cat-in-the-box" type of deal, where Dushrain tried to find someone foolish and zealous enough to actually pay at least something for the property, that Dushrain have no more control over. It's just like trying to sell something that he lost with the therms that "in case of this thing would be found, you may have it if you buy the rights from me now". I didn't think he would have much sucsees over this; but, if he would be able to organize the auction and co-opt Clyntahn to come and ask the potential customers innocently "Why are you refusing to buy the Mother Church gifts on so low price? Are you shure that you haven't any doubts about our eventual prevail over heretics?"...

Buyers certainly won't be able to claim that property before the end of the war, or if the war isn't a resounding Temple victory. That's why it is discounted.

Actually, it depend. Even if the Church would lose the war, but would not be completely defunct, they may argue that the private property rights should be honored; even if the war ending condition would require the Church and the Knights of the Temple Lands to renounce claims on the Charisian-based property, the buyers that buy this property before the end of the war could pretty well demand to get it.

The most resonable approach from Charis would, probably, be the nationalisation of all Church-owned property under pretext of wartime conditions, and later claims that by the nationalisation, the private rights of the Knights of the Temple Lands or private investors was nullified.

That's a revolting idea and almost certainly right.

The Church's fundraising could turn into extortion overnight and it will be hard to avoid.

blackjack217 wrote:We know that Ducheran is planning to sell off church property in the Charesian empire at steep discounts in order to help pay for the war. However, there's a small problem with this, the Temple Loyalists still exist in all of the parts of the empire, and they still presumably control some of the property being sold off. Will buyers actually be able to enforce the sale before the end of the war? And how will the Temple Loyalists feel about legally losing access to their remaining property? Of being quite literally sold out by the temple?

I can see Charis taking advantage of this. Nynian uses her Zion contacts and buys those deeds for pennies to the Hundred or Thousand Mark on behalf of Siddermarkian concerns...perhaps the House of Qwentyn. The Church or Empire of Charis then buys those assets from the House of Qwentyn for a heavily discounted but more reasonable price. This would remove any future claims the CoGA would have on any EoC property and Charis would do a good turn to a staunch ally.

The CoGA would have already compelled the sale of these assets to some poor schmuck. That guy/entity gets some value for his worthless deed. Charis gains a propaganda coup on several levels.

blackjack217 wrote:We know that Ducheran is planning to sell off church property in the Charesian empire at steep discounts in order to help pay for the war. However, there's a small problem with this, the Temple Loyalists still exist in all of the parts of the empire, and they still presumably control some of the property being sold off. Will buyers actually be able to enforce the sale before the end of the war? And how will the Temple Loyalists feel about legally losing access to their remaining property? Of being quite literally sold out by the temple?

The vast majority of Church property in the Empire is under the control of the Church of Charis, aka heretics to be executed. They might well be upset and complain, but they'll have other things to worry about.

Dilandu wrote:Generally speaking, all this selling was a "cat-in-the-box" type of deal, where Dushrain tried to find someone foolish and zealous enough to actually pay at least something for the property, that Dushrain have no more control over. It's just like trying to sell something that he lost with the therms that "in case of this thing would be found, you may have it if you buy the rights from me now". I didn't think he would have much sucsees over this; but, if he would be able to organize the auction and co-opt Clyntahn to come and ask the potential customers innocently "Why are you refusing to buy the Mother Church gifts on so low price? Are you shure that you haven't any doubts about our eventual prevail over heretics?"...

While Duchairn might be able to talk Clyntahn into something like that, Ducharin absolutely does not want to use Clyntahn for anything that he does not have any remotely viable alternative for.

Dilandu wrote:

Buyers certainly won't be able to claim that property before the end of the war, or if the war isn't a resounding Temple victory. That's why it is discounted.

Actually, it depend. Even if the Church would lose the war, but would not be completely defunct, they may argue that the private property rights should be honored; even if the war ending condition would require the Church and the Knights of the Temple Lands to renounce claims on the Charisian-based property, the buyers that buy this property before the end of the war could pretty well demand to get it.

The most resonable approach from Charis would, probably, be the nationalisation of all Church-owned property under pretext of wartime conditions, and later claims that by the nationalisation, the private rights of the Knights of the Temple Lands or private investors was nullified.

Nah, those sales would be invalid. The Temple was trying to sell something it did not own.
If somebody (fraudulently) presents the right documentation and sells a house, but someone else (that the first wasn't representing) is the owner, the "buyer" doesn't own the house, but they still got screwed.

JeffEngel wrote:Buyers certainly won't be able to claim that property before the end of the war, or if the war isn't a resounding Temple victory. That's why it is discounted.

Sort of. Basically, there are two types of the Church's property in the Empire. The first type, which is presumably the vast majority, has been taken by the Church of Charis (who are presumably using it to fund infrastructure improvements and to feed Siddarmark). The second type is controlled by the Temple Loyalists who we know control at least some of the property. My question is what will happen if say a Silkiahn merchant showed up at a temple loyalist manor with a writ of ownership?

Kytheros wrote:While Duchairn might be able to talk Clyntahn into something like that, Ducharin absolutely does not want to use Clyntahn for anything that he does not have any remotely viable alternative for.

Well, at least this would be really amusing to see - the horde of buyers, eager to buy a pig in a poke (i think it is the english equivalent for the Cat-in-the-box?) for any money.

Kytheros wrote:Nah, those sales would be invalid. The Temple was trying to sell something it did not own.

Er, actually they own this places. And legally they have rights to do that. The problem is, that someone else (Charisians) are forbade their acess to the property. But this does not nullify the Temple's rights.

Dilandu wrote:Er, actually they own this places. And legally they have rights to do that. The problem is, that someone else (Charisians) are forbade their acess to the property. But this does not nullify the Temple's rights.

No, they seized the property under the legal principle of "Its a war, I can steal your property whenever I want."