A little dirtier topic, how about NBC being used in Safehold

I imagine biological weapons would be a fine idea for the Temple. Clyntahn and his minions don't have scruples. I'm sure some Rakurai would be happy to release a plague in the islands especially, or even Siddarmark. And then the Temple can declare it the will of God, or Shan-wei's betrayal of even her "own".

The EoC recognizes that the moral high ground is the only place it is safe in the long term. That's a policy even Nahrmahn accepts, although he's likely to be well outside the box about it still. And Aivah/Nynian/She Who Is Legion wants to expose and punish the vicarate for all its sins - she's not about to use indiscriminate weapons now. (All those assassinations would have been so much easier if precision weren't important.)

Battlefields irritants would be another issue though. There, there is "only" the classic problem of managing ones that are both effective and able to be placed so as to bother the enemy much, much more than friendly troops nearby. I suspect Safehold (or Charis, at least) could now produce tolerable gas masks in decent quantity, but wouldn't be able to handle skin protection on the battlefield well.

Keeping NBC weapons bottled up shouldn't be too hard. Paityr can rule that the violate the Proscriptions if someone does bring them up on Charis's side, preventing that method of bringing them in. The Church has, so far, not introduced anything that would violate the old proscriptions unless Charis introduced it first.

I proposed using the biological weapon against crops on mainland... It was ruled out because "it would spread mass starvation, and the good guys couldn't do it". Personally, i think that the situation on mainland is bad enough, and a little famine that would be able to explode Harchong Empire from inside wouldn't make the situation actually worse - but quite effectivly would exaust the Church resources. But "good guys couldn't do it" .

P.S. Franlkly it would be pretty interesting, if someone invited into the Inner Circle would became a proponent of unrestricted warfare. The temptation to weaken the enemy by destroying its civilian support is almost insuperable, especially if the enemy is doing exactly that. It could be quite interesting plot, if some good but too eager fellow, admitted into the Innerc Circle, would use the database to actually produce some nasty bioweapon, that he would want the unleash in Harchong or in the Temple Lands.

For those that may not appreciate.. A commission is granted by the reigning monarch. In republics this function is taken over by the state. So you have commissioned officers and warrant officers below them. The first job of a w/o is to train commissioned officers how to manage... the story goes on from there.

NHBL wrote:Keeping NBC weapons bottled up shouldn't be too hard. Paityr can rule that the violate the Proscriptions if someone does bring them up on Charis's side, preventing that method of bringing them in. The Church has, so far, not introduced anything that would violate the old proscriptions unless Charis introduced it first.

Following your thought one step further leads to something awesome.

Imagine the propaganda victory of the most respected Scheulerite ruling the GoGA in violation of the Proscriptions.

Imagine that decree nailed to every church door on the planet. OK, that would give away a secret capability. Maybe just a few in Harchong.

Dilandu wrote:I proposed using the biological weapon against crops on mainland... It was ruled out because "it would spread mass starvation, and the good guys couldn't do it". Personally, i think that the situation on mainland is bad enough, and a little famine that would be able to explode Harchong Empire from inside wouldn't make the situation actually worse - but quite effectivly would exaust the Church resources. But "good guys couldn't do it" .

The problems with releasing a biological weapon on food supplies are how do you stop it and how do you prevent it from destroying your own food supplies? On top of that, I do not believe that we have seen anything that suggests that the CoGA has the ability to create such a despicable weapon.

Nukes: Out of the question quite apart from scruples. Whatever's under the temple might be hard enough to survive, the OBS certainly will survive. Things could go very badly indeed.

Biological: Depending on what they have in that cave I'm not sure it's even possible. Remember, they are in an alien biosphere--local bugs aren't likely to want to eat humans (a local bug that likes humans would likely have been a pandemic long ago) and I would think they would have been very careful about limiting human pathogens. Thus I don't think there are any suitable bugs around. It's possible they have the DNA sequences in their computers but do they have the equipment to turn them into a working pathogen?

Chemical: I don't believe either side can manufacture effective chemical agents, other than small quantities in the cave.

However, this thread gave me an idea, assuming they have the tech in the cave:

How about a very slow acting, non-lethal chemical agent?

Specifically, I'm thinking prions. Devise a prion that induces hallucinations and seed the expensive alcohol with it. The elite (and probably a few mistresses) go crazy and can't manage the defense, the defense collapses and the Charisians march in--with a treatment for the hallucinations.

Note that prions go right through any food safety procedures they could have in place--they go right through modern food safety precautions. (Our prion-safety precautions are 100% based on keeping them out of the food supply in the first place.)

Loren Pechtel wrote:Nukes: Out of the question quite apart from scruples. Whatever's under the temple might be hard enough to survive, the OBS certainly will survive. Things could go very badly indeed.

Biological: Depending on what they have in that cave I'm not sure it's even possible. Remember, they are in an alien biosphere--local bugs aren't likely to want to eat humans (a local bug that likes humans would likely have been a pandemic long ago) and I would think they would have been very careful about limiting human pathogens. Thus I don't think there are any suitable bugs around. It's possible they have the DNA sequences in their computers but do they have the equipment to turn them into a working pathogen?

Chemical: I don't believe either side can manufacture effective chemical agents, other than small quantities in the cave.

However, this thread gave me an idea, assuming they have the tech in the cave:

How about a very slow acting, non-lethal chemical agent?

Specifically, I'm thinking prions. Devise a prion that induces hallucinations and seed the expensive alcohol with it. The elite (and probably a few mistresses) go crazy and can't manage the defense, the defense collapses and the Charisians march in--with a treatment for the hallucinations.

Note that prions go right through any food safety procedures they could have in place--they go right through modern food safety precautions. (Our prion-safety precautions are 100% based on keeping them out of the food supply in the first place.)

Nukes: Definitely a terrible idea - any nuke buildable with Safehold tech (even by Charis) isn't going to cripple the Temple, and might very well trigger automatic safety measures. Merlin (or Nimue) could have Owl build a FedTech nuclear device capable of cracking the Temple, but that's still not a guarantee of killing whatever is under the Temple. And whatever else, I'm quite confident that a nuclear detonation is something that automatically wakes up some sort of (Arch)Angelic contingency measure.

Biologicals are inherently uncontrollable. Prior to landing on the mainland, I suppose a suitable biological agent could have been employed and left to burn itself out while ripping a hole in the CoGA's subordinate lands. It would've been risky, though. Now, it's inherently a bad idea.
As far as the Alien biosphere ... sure, Safehold is non-terrestrial, but it's very similar - close enough that Safehold-native plants and animals are edible by humans. Local stuff adapting to humans is probably a large part of the why behind sections of the Book of Pasquale.


Chemical - yeah, chemical agents are probably the "safest" option. They probably can't be produced in sufficient quantity for regular battlefield use, though for something special, it's probably doable. I'd say the Temple would be a prime target for chemical agents, but the only viable way in would be through the food that gets brought in. Airborne agents would have negligible footprint, the water is bound to be filtered.
Spiking the food (or high quality drinks if you're worried about the leftovers being donated to feed the poor) is the only viable way in to get at the Vicars, and a slow acting agent (whatever you wound up using) that induces hallucinations would be a rather nasty way to screw with them.

JeffEngel wrote:Battlefields irritants would be another issue though.

Already used, albeit unintentionally.

Basically, set a native Safehold forest on fire. Said forest is full of oily plants that when burned, produce huge clouds that irritate eyes and (IIRC) throats. Have wind blow said smoke into enemies faces.

This was done to Dohlarans and Desnairans IIRC when the Charisians blocked their supply lines. The forest fire was a side effect of using gunpowder weaponry in woods full of flammable stuff.