Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay

bafoote wrote:

Thirdbase wrote:

Duckk wrote:The amount of hyperbole used to describe Lacoon reminds me of the discussions we had of Oyster Bay where people were claiming the entire Manticore system would soon fall apart due to lack of maintenance and starvation would prowl all the planets. Yes Lacoon is going to put the thumbscrews on the League economy. No it's not going to directly lead to the mass starvation of the entire League.

The fact that Montana exports beef is not indicative of food supply of the entire League. Beef is a luxury item. It's expensive to raise since they both need to be fed, raised, then slaughtered. They are a land intensive animal because they both need space to roam, and there's also the space required to raise the food to feed the cow. Shipping the beef back to markets in the League isn't a problem since good beef is aged for 1 or 2 months before being cooked, so sitting in a freighter is not a problem.

Plant foods, on the otherhand, are fairly cheap to bring to market from local sources. Hydroponics and orbital farms have been mentioned as cheap areas for growing food even if there is no land on the planet to grow it. Fresh food also go bad unless preserved somehow (freezing, canning, etc). I'm sure most people would prefer having fresh food at least some of the time compared to a diet of all frozen or preserved food.

Taking the two statements above, it is not unreasonable to assume that while some food is imported, much of it is produced locally.

I'm not even sure how much food those planets need to import. Back in the '60s and '70s they said we wouldn't be able to feed 4 billion (or some number around that) here we are at over 6 billion and we produce plenty of food, distribution isn't the best, but the food exists.

It doesn't take much food growth to keep feeding the population.

I honestly can't believe ANY planet would import food. It all comes down to available energy and how cheep it is. Energy = water. IE desalination. Free energy = Free Water. Since this is a fusion society Energy = "Free" = "Free water" for high intensity farming.

Take wheat farming for instance. Dry "traditional wheat farming" obtain 3-4x LESS wheat than wet wheat farming. It all comes down to availability of water. With free energy one can pump the needed water ANYWHERE one wants to farm. Take Desserts for instance. Make it automated for most farming. If energy were free even a small portion of african Dessert would feed the entire world with its year long growing season.

Even if the population was 10X what it is today. As the vast majority of land surface is not used for farming due to its aridness this problem vanishes. Fact is the most key ingredient is potassium as nitrogen fertilizer for growing plants is tied directly to Energy as well as its NH3 ammonia nitrates. With free energy this can be processed directly out of the air and plant matter or the ocean itself. Gets back to desalination. Also obtains your H3 needed for said fusion as well...

Actually I can see all planets importing food. For the same reason the US does, because it isn't available on the planet. I do agree though that planets should not be importing staple foods like grains.

Yea, but none should need said exotic imports to feed themselves. All it means is that the table isn't heaped with 20 different exotic foods instead of just 10 dishes...

Dane Dryss wrote:Wow you seem to be incapable of not arguing. They never made their own Nukes. We gave them Nukes. Simple. And if they made them then we gave them the lab the scientists and the materials along with an Nuclear Weapons for Dummies.
The impeller wedge is not a "Death Star" or a "Planet Cracker". If so the PRH would have used it on planets not loyal.
But I see that you will keep arguing till you turn blue in the face. Have a great time on here, and have fun debating with others.

Oh come on, dont accuse me of not knowing how to argue when you dont not what you are talking about.
No, you (and I assume you mean the US with that) didn’t give them any nukes. The history of the Israeli nuclear program is well known. What you right here is total BS.
The French get all credit when it comes to foreign help for the program. Israeli scientists helped France with their nuclear program before France build Israel the Dimona Reactor in the Negev. The US did nothing but look the other way.
Read Hersh, The Sampson Option or Cohen, The Bomb in the Basement for example.

Dane Dryss wrote:Yes but when someone with the resources that the Sollies have know that something can be done, they will get it done. Look how fast Haven got MDM after the Manties showed it off.

It doesn’t work that way. Haven and Manticore had a Cold War going for decades. Both side were building as much ships as they possible could, with the best technology available.
The Sollys didn’t do that at all. For them the Havanite Wars never happened.

solbergb wrote:The Israeli air force was plane-for-plane superior in quality, even leaving aside the better trained pilots. They got air superiority right away and used it to devastating effect. Yes, they did a "sneak attack" but the Arab airplanes were nothing special. […]

Well obviously I didn’t go into details.
I disagree.
1) The IAF wasn’t really in quality. The Arabs had the legendary Mig-21 and the older MiG-19 while the Israelis flew the Mirage and the older Ouragan and Mystere.
All were capable aircraft but none was that much better than the other that it mattered in the air.
The tech advantage for the Nato you describe only happened in the Eighties. Before there they were pretty much equal in the air, many they the Nato was on a disadvantage.
The Israelis won because they had the better pilots and ground crews. The arabs sucked at both.
If both side had the equipment of the other they results would have been the same.

2) Israels tank forces were inferior. The Arabs had the latest soviet stuff in mass, T-54, T-55, even T-62. Sure, there was some world war equipment as well. The great T-34-85 and self propelled guns like the Su-100.
The Syrians used some Pzkw IV as stationary bunkers on the Golan.
The Jordanians had M47, M48 and Centurions, just like Israel.
Israels forces consisted of Shermans, Pattons, Centurions and AMX-13. All were upgraded to have a chance against latest soviet armor (your british 105mm gun is only on example). Bought from different sources (sometimes only parts assembled later in Israel) and with all the upgrading, the armor corps was a logistical nightmare. The British and American tanks weren’t really suited for Desert Combat and broke down easily.

The Israelis one because they were competent fighters and fought to survive. They had some of the greatest armor commanders in history (Israel Tal for example) and actually knew how to fight with an armoured force.
The Arabs didn’t.

The Jordanians were no match for Israel, no question about it. They never wanted to go to war with them anyway. Egypt and Syria were the problem for Israel, not Jordan forces in the West Bank.
But they did get a crushing victory when they attacked them.
They kicked them out of the West Bank in no time with minimal losses.
Sure, the fighting in Jerusalem was bloody but urban warfare always is. Especially if you fight only with Light Infantry without much tank and artillery support due to political and religious considerations.
The Israelis never had a plan for attacking beyond the Jordan. So maybe their victory doesn’t seem as crushing on paper but they achieved every they aimed for when they had the opportunity after the victory in the Sinai.
No stalemate at all.
The Syrians sucked, no question. But their terrain was awesome and their equipment very good. Of course they never had a chance against battle hardned Israeli brigades with high moral after their victory in the Sinai and the capture of the Wall in the Old City.´
The Israelis had very little artillery support, it’s a wonder that they could conquer the Golan High so fast with so little losses.
Anyway, I agree with you that the IDF actually knew how to fight and the Arabs didn’t.
That doesn’t say anything about equipment however.
The Arabs had more and more of the good stuff, got it all in one from the Soviet Union while Israel needed to create an army out of everything they could get their hands on.

bafoote wrote:honestly can't believe ANY planet would import food. It all comes down to available energy and how cheep it is.

As long as someone can make money from it it will be done.
Don’t you think its cheap to ship grain in those really big merchant ships around the stars than to grow it on some alien planet?
Not every world is a Garden Eden like Manticore or Sphinx. Don’t you think it would be fun to try and grow food on Gryphon with all that interesting "weather"?
Sure, you can build up a infrastructure to do that. But why if you have a farm planet in the next system that can sustain an entire sector?
And not everyone like to farm you know. Its entirely possible that many societies in the League dont like the idea of using their landsacpe to grow food. The Core World are most likely overpopulated anyway, so they try and preserve the nature.
I for myselve cant picture for example Beowulf growing food for untold billions.
Thats another factor btw. People in developed countries eat more and different then in poorer countries.
I dont believe for a second that our own little planet can sustain 7 billion humans, consuming the food what we are consuming in the first world.
The ressources just arent there.

bafoote wrote:

Thirdbase wrote:

Duckk wrote:The amount of hyperbole used to describe Lacoon reminds me of the discussions we had of Oyster Bay where people were claiming the entire Manticore system would soon fall apart due to lack of maintenance and starvation would prowl all the planets. Yes Lacoon is going to put the thumbscrews on the League economy. No it's not going to directly lead to the mass starvation of the entire League.

The fact that Montana exports beef is not indicative of food supply of the entire League. Beef is a luxury item. It's expensive to raise since they both need to be fed, raised, then slaughtered. They are a land intensive animal because they both need space to roam, and there's also the space required to raise the food to feed the cow. Shipping the beef back to markets in the League isn't a problem since good beef is aged for 1 or 2 months before being cooked, so sitting in a freighter is not a problem.

Plant foods, on the otherhand, are fairly cheap to bring to market from local sources. Hydroponics and orbital farms have been mentioned as cheap areas for growing food even if there is no land on the planet to grow it. Fresh food also go bad unless preserved somehow (freezing, canning, etc). I'm sure most people would prefer having fresh food at least some of the time compared to a diet of all frozen or preserved food.

Taking the two statements above, it is not unreasonable to assume that while some food is imported, much of it is produced locally.

I'm not even sure how much food those planets need to import. Back in the '60s and '70s they said we wouldn't be able to feed 4 billion (or some number around that) here we are at over 6 billion and we produce plenty of food, distribution isn't the best, but the food exists.

It doesn't take much food growth to keep feeding the population.

I honestly can't believe ANY planet would import food. It all comes down to available energy and how cheep it is. Energy = water. IE desalination. Free energy = Free Water. Since this is a fusion society Energy = "Free" = "Free water" for high intensity farming.

Take wheat farming for instance. Dry "traditional wheat farming" obtain 3-4x LESS wheat than wet wheat farming. It all comes down to availability of water. With free energy one can pump the needed water ANYWHERE one wants to farm. Take Desserts for instance. Make it automated for most farming. If energy were free even a small portion of african Dessert would feed the entire world with its year long growing season.

Even if the population was 10X what it is today. As the vast majority of land surface is not used for farming due to its aridness this problem vanishes. Fact is the most key ingredient is potassium as nitrogen fertilizer for growing plants is tied directly to Energy as well as its NH3 ammonia nitrates. With free energy this can be processed directly out of the air and plant matter or the ocean itself. Gets back to desalination. Also obtains your H3 needed for said fusion as well...

Actually I can see all planets importing food. For the same reason the US does, because it isn't available on the planet. I do agree though that planets should not be importing staple foods like grains.[/quote]


Hi guys,

Importing exotic and 'luxury' foods has been going on for several millennia.

Regarding primary food supply ditto, ditto:
Remember Japan starving in WW2, so post war farmers were and are subsidized, despite extremely high property values for the best farmland, which is often adjacent to major cities. In the US, most farmers just sold when the price was 'right'; we're about 20 times Japan's size with far more arable land. OTOH, the soviets tried to increase meat production and wound up importing basic grains when the weather didn't cooperate.

Today some appropriate tech agriculture can feed 14-15 per acre (~3000ft^2) or 9000-9600 people per mile^2 (their goal is 1000 ft^2/person). I suspect 2000 years of technological advances ought to mean even greater agricultural improvement, but nanotech might be processing garbage into tasty, healthy food or synthesizing food directly from 'raw' (pure) chemicals.
Even at rates of only 10,000 people per mile^2, the average SL planet of 6-8 billion population would need only 600-800,000 square miles of farmland, or only 1-2% of the likely planetary arable land area, without using the counter-grav tech to build 100+ level sealed agri-towers, miles on a side, if there was ever a need for it on any planets like Grayson, etc.

Torch has a population of 4.25 million, but is supposedly all jungle (poles, etc ?), I suspect they could build agricultural 'skydomes' for agriculture if needed, but since food production hasn't been mentioned as any kind of problem, there probably is plenty of land for any growing population's needs.

Granted, Haven was so inefficient that the peeps were importing food for the dolists, until they got off their duffs. While they demanded to work in the shipyards, just becoming self sufficient would have had a faster, more immediate effect on improving peep resource allocations for the war; "fighting farmers" etc (BTW, the dolists weren't just on Haven).

Regarding the Solarian war, if the SLN is concentrating all its remaining active SD's against the SKM, if their next two missile sponge operations (Filareta & unknown follow-up) fail to consume the SKM's remaining missile pods, what will happen in their absence ?

The MWW has repeated in the pearls that there are many SL members that don't trust their neighbors with good reason, and the same reciprocated, etc. Just over 2/3 of all SL members have only LAC's, depending on the SLN (BF) for real deterrence. If that leaves suddenly, or disappears, what will replace that protection?

How many mice, now kings among the blind, will play ?

A simple breakdown produces the possible following OoB's:
300 system SDF's with 5-6 hyper-capable warships,
150 system SDF's with 10-12 H-C warships,
75 system SDF's with ~25 H-C warships,
38 system SDF's with 50 H-C warships,
19 system SDF's with 100 H-C warships,
9 system SDF's with 200 H-C warships,
5 system SDF's with 400 H-C warships,
4 system SDF's with ~800 H-C warships.
All spread among ~1200 of their LAC only neighbors.
The MWW has declared the largest SDF has no more than 800 H-C warships if that, which is why larger fleet numbers aren't larger.

If someone suddenly promises your system the protection you need against your neighbors, are you going to get snarky if its Mesa that will save you?
Nor will it matter if your enemy may be part of the RF.
HH's divide and conquer strategy will work just as well for the MAlg as the SEM or the grand alliance.

So far, the only one who really sees whats coming and is the best prepared for whatever action is required to "save civilization" is the MAlg/RF, not surprisingly; after all, they set it up.

The SEM may have envisioned it, but only its allies in the grand alliance are large enough to have anything comparable to the MAlg.

Will local BF or FF units set up their little fiefdoms ?

If the FF leaves the protectorates, what happens to OFS ?
How many verge states might want to help their neighbors wrest their systems back from FS ?

After the losses from BoMA in AAC the Manticoran Alliance had some 237 SDP's, ~200 non-Apollo's; In SFtS Caperelli says they'll have "some 380 by mid February, most of them Apollo capable", which also happens to be when Bolthole completes its 800 RHN SDP program (what's on the slips after the SDP's?) of which only ~420 survive, for 800 SDP's between the 4 'grand alliance' members (plus next fall-winter, the RHN will complete another 400 SDP's). the MA has some 483 old SD's remaining, while the RHN has around 319, for another 800 SD's, nearly all under 20 years old.

Against this the SLN isn't that much of a threat.

Given what should be its own security priorities, sending half of BF to soak up SKM missiles at the cost of several (6-7) million sailors shows the moral bankruptcy, the arrogant ignorance, and military incompetence of the SLN command. The fact the MAlg is helping them walk the plank doesn't abjure them from their own stupidity.

I suspect when Admiral Chin greets Filareta, Tourville may be aboard but not in command (with a RMN ship acting as FTL relay for Hermes), with only 200 SDP's (400 pods each), if only 800 missiles per BF SD, she ought to be able to destroy him easily (only 40% of her load-out), and re munition in hours, though it will be month's before the SLN will be able to try again.

With SL newsies aboard to report it, that fact might compel the SLN or the bureaucrats to call Rajampet off like the mad dog he is, or the paid or programed MAlg tool he's become, etc.

Perhaps her possible line might be: "Filareta, choose which quarter of your fleet I kill, so I don't have to kill the rest" might get Filareta see reason.

As for RMN pod numbers, the need is no longer critical, aside from some possible 'skirmishes' for Laocoon I &II (for color in the next book), but the confidence of WhiteHaven and Caparelli in executing both of them argues local SLN forces are not a threat if they even exist.

There's more meat here, but there are time and space limitations.

Best wishes,

L

I posted a link to a Pearls of Weber entry that has some rather definitive info about the three clsses of SD(P). Go read it before posting about pod capacity. You also might want to read through AT ALL COSTS.

Star Knight wrote:

namelessfly wrote:The INVICTUS extended the pod core forward and armored the interior, giving it more offensive missile capacity and making it more survivable. Total pods carried is about 1,000.

Where did you get 1000 pods from?

I allready posted another Quote of DW about the subject:

One of the differences between the Invictus and the Harrington-B design is that the Harrington-Bs accept a lower standard of protection. They’re probably just a tad less tough than the old DNs, whereas the Invictus-class, with a somewhat smaller designed missile loadout and an even larger hull, is probably actually at least as tough — or even tougher than — the old, pre-pod SDs. You might think of the Harrington-Bs as the Iowa-class and the Invictus as the Montana or Yamato. Of course, they have some good points that weren’t part of the original Invictus design, either, and they are definitely going to have an effect on how future designs evolve.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49

"somewhat smaller" doesnt sound like half of the Medusa B capacity.

as for the food:
its like today. even today does not every country produce all its food but imports. in honorveerse, that viable because the price for buying food from planet to planet it is probably cheaper to import food from the outer shell or verge to the SL (at least the core and inner shells) then to grow it. I have to agree that if and when the need to get their own food comes, they can probably use countergrav multistore farms. On the other hand, they can still import food ffrom outer shell/verge using "independent" shipping companies who just happen to use hired "freelance" Manticore freighters. (i hope i am clear enough). After all, in SL it all comes to bakshish.
If the Fecal matter hits the rotary air accelerator, it is probable that SL will try to get food on its own and not to send some money the RMMN way. But i bet you some governor will do the math, buy the food from "not RMMN", putting the difference of money between building farms and growing their own (as in their planets) food on their own "of course its legal" accounts.

Speculations about starvation on Manticore were not hypberboly. They were projections based on Weber's misstatements about how ALL Manticoran industry had beenw iped out in Oyster Bay. What OB did was equivelent to taking out Boeing and Pratt and Whitney in the modern world, or the major US shipyards during WW-II. The Honorverse equivelent of Caterpiller, John Deere, International Harvester not to mention GM, FORD and Chystler are still there along witht he steel and aluminum industries. Just as these civilian industries converted to manufacturing military weapons during WW-II, Manticore still has civilian industries that can help rebuild the ship and SKM building capacity and also provide altnertive production.

Speculations about starvation in the SL are not hyperboly either. Lots of nations are dependant on food imports. Why do you think the US exports so much grain? Most of the dryland wheat raised in the Columbia River basin gets exported. Ditto for patatoes. These are staple foods, not luxury items. These foods are exported to countries that are extremely dependant on food imports to feed themselves. Saudi Arabia used to be one of them until the King decreed that they'd spend a shit load of money on desalinazation plants and irrigated land. This gave them food security plus gave a whole lot of Saudi Citizens something more useful to do than being suicide bombers. Hong Kong and Singapore are utterly dependant on food imports. Even countries that are generally self suffecient in food are dependant on imports to alliviate crop failures and droughts. Without the high technology shipping industry that can and does transport hundreds of millions of tons of food around the world each year,routine local food shortages and crop failures would become famines that would kill tens of millions of people.

One thing Weber has revealed about the SL is that the governments have become arrogant and stupid. They have Frontier Fleet to beat the crap out of the neobarbs, so why not become dependant on food imports the way Rome did? Many of the SL worlds might have influential, environmentalist Fucktards who compromise their ability to grow food. Just look what our Fucktard and Chief did to the San Jaquin (spelling?, help!) by cutting off the irrigation water during hte critical months to protect some allegedly endangerred species. Took 10% of US ag production and flushed it down the toilet. This follows on the heels of smaller scale disruptions of irrigation in places such as the Klamath basin. Up until now it is just the agricultural communites that have been fucked by the environmentalists. Any more reductiosn in agricultural productionw ill compromise the US ability to feed itself. It is patheticly easy to imagine SL planets being ruled by idiot elites who have done far, far worse to compromise domestic food production.

Duckk wrote:The amount of hyperbole used to describe Lacoon reminds me of the discussions we had of Oyster Bay where people were claiming the entire Manticore system would soon fall apart due to lack of maintenance and starvation would prowl all the planets. Yes Lacoon is going to put the thumbscrews on the League economy. No it's not going to directly lead to the mass starvation of the entire League.

The fact that Montana exports beef is not indicative of food supply of the entire League. Beef is a luxury item. It's expensive to raise since they both need to be fed, raised, then slaughtered. They are a land intensive animal because they both need space to roam, and there's also the space required to raise the food to feed the cow. Shipping the beef back to markets in the League isn't a problem since good beef is aged for 1 or 2 months before being cooked, so sitting in a freighter is not a problem.

Plant foods, on the otherhand, are fairly cheap to bring to market from local sources. Hydroponics and orbital farms have been mentioned as cheap areas for growing food even if there is no land on the planet to grow it. Fresh food also go bad unless preserved somehow (freezing, canning, etc). I'm sure most people would prefer having fresh food at least some of the time compared to a diet of all frozen or preserved food.

Taking the two statements above, it is not unreasonable to assume that while some food is imported, much of it is produced locally.

This argument is predicated on the presumptions that SL governments are making sentient decisions. This is not a reasonable premise upon which to make logical deductions.

bafoote wrote:

Thirdbase wrote:

Duckk wrote:The amount of hyperbole used to describe Lacoon reminds me of the discussions we had of Oyster Bay where people were claiming the entire Manticore system would soon fall apart due to lack of maintenance and starvation would prowl all the planets. Yes Lacoon is going to put the thumbscrews on the League economy. No it's not going to directly lead to the mass starvation of the entire League.

The fact that Montana exports beef is not indicative of food supply of the entire League. Beef is a luxury item. It's expensive to raise since they both need to be fed, raised, then slaughtered. They are a land intensive animal because they both need space to roam, and there's also the space required to raise the food to feed the cow. Shipping the beef back to markets in the League isn't a problem since good beef is aged for 1 or 2 months before being cooked, so sitting in a freighter is not a problem.

Plant foods, on the otherhand, are fairly cheap to bring to market from local sources. Hydroponics and orbital farms have been mentioned as cheap areas for growing food even if there is no land on the planet to grow it. Fresh food also go bad unless preserved somehow (freezing, canning, etc). I'm sure most people would prefer having fresh food at least some of the time compared to a diet of all frozen or preserved food.

Taking the two statements above, it is not unreasonable to assume that while some food is imported, much of it is produced locally.

I'm not even sure how much food those planets need to import. Back in the '60s and '70s they said we wouldn't be able to feed 4 billion (or some number around that) here we are at over 6 billion and we produce plenty of food, distribution isn't the best, but the food exists.

It doesn't take much food growth to keep feeding the population.

I honestly can't believe ANY planet would import food. It all comes down to available energy and how cheep it is. Energy = water. IE desalination. Free energy = Free Water. Since this is a fusion society Energy = "Free" = "Free water" for high intensity farming.

Take wheat farming for instance. Dry "traditional wheat farming" obtain 3-4x LESS wheat than wet wheat farming. It all comes down to availability of water. With free energy one can pump the needed water ANYWHERE one wants to farm. Take Desserts for instance. Make it automated for most farming. If energy were free even a small portion of african Dessert would feed the entire world with its year long growing season.

Even if the population was 10X what it is today. As the vast majority of land surface is not used for farming due to its aridness this problem vanishes. Fact is the most key ingredient is potassium as nitrogen fertilizer for growing plants is tied directly to Energy as well as its NH3 ammonia nitrates. With free energy this can be processed directly out of the air and plant matter or the ocean itself. Gets back to desalination. Also obtains your H3 needed for said fusion as well...

The impeller wedge isn't a "Planet cracker." However; an impeller wedge driven ship moving at relativistic velocity is.

Let us keep impact velocity nonrelativistic to simplify the math.

KE = 1/2MV^2.

Weber describes ten million ton freighters moving at 1/2 C.

KE = 1/2 x 3eex10 kg x (1.5eex7m/s)^2

KE = 1.5eex10 x 2.25eex14 = about 3 eex 24 Jouels

KE = about one billion one megaton bombs.

Think of a crater about 500 miles in diameter and about 150 kilometers deep.

Think of a crater so damn big that about 10,000 square miles of the planetary crust is completely stripped away to expose the mantle. Think of the energy that will be unleashed onto the enviroment as that crust cools.

This is bigger than any of the impact craters we've found that are suspected dinosaur killers. (Note, some fo the smaller craters that corresspond to an impact energy comparale to only a few thousand all out nuclear wars do not coincide with any known mass extinction events. So much for the nuke winter theorey)

Dane Dryss wrote:

Star Knight wrote:

Dane Dryss wrote: @Star Knight
I will only address the Israel war. They had Nukes. End of story.

Well acutally they had no nukes during the Six Day War. Various sources disagree but at best they had a couple of crude nuclear devices, kinda unusable in combat.
There was talk about setting of a nuclear explosion as a deterrent but that suggestion (came from Peres if i remember correctly) went nowhere for obvious reasons.
Full scale weapons prodcutions started after the Six Day War.
Your are most likely talking about the Yom Kippur War in 1973. There was talk about a limited nuclear strike and a nuclear alert was issued. But i was mainly politics to free American aid (which worked and saved them).

Dane Dryss wrote: So you point is moot as far as that war is concerned. Nobody in Honorverse has a "Death Star" or a "Planet Cracker".

Actually everyone has them. Its called an impeller wedge. There is a reason fo the eridani edict.
If you dont like the six day war you can look at what the Japanese did in 1941/42. Or Germany in 1940 against France and 1941 against the Soviet Union. Military speaking its the same strategic situation.

Wow you seem to be incapable of not arguing. They never made their own Nukes. We gave them Nukes. Simple. And if they made them then we gave them the lab the scientists and the materials along with an Nuclear Weapons for Dummies.
The impeller wedge is not a "Death Star" or a "Planet Cracker". If so the PRH would have used it on planets not loyal.
But I see that you will keep arguing till you turn blue in the face. Have a great time on here, and have fun debating with others.

Side note on food.

You guys keep making parallels between nations with very little land area or very little arable land area or large populations comared to their land area and food today compared to COMPLETE worlds and intersteller shipping.

Sorry it DOES NOT compute. Why? Because a world good enough for human settlement will have plenty of land area and available water. Add in DW's giant towers everyone lives in and Most Industry is in Space requiring very little use of arable land area. Add free energy and water becomes cheep which means all land area can be used to grow crops. ALL. Not just some. Want to grown crops in the Sahara? Done. Just need water.

As for Gryphon, it weather is just fine for growing crops. It does have SUdden onset of FALL and SPRING due to axial tilt. Its weather is just fine otherwise. Sudden changes going from Hot to Cold season is what happens if your axial tilt is greater as your summer is hotter(more hours of sunlight) and your winters colder(fewer hours of sunlight). In otherwords their summers will be more stable, IE the growing season and likewise the winters will also be stable, IE colder(harsher). Not to mention on such planets you still have all the land area near the equator. The sahara dessert with water would feed everyone in the world many times over even if it was semi-dry farmed.