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tech gap

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Re: tech gap
Post by viciokie   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:23 pm

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I think that while the SL may lose several hundred agents due to being green and not knowing how to act, i think there is a seed of a decent counter intel group at least in the Naval Intel office IIRC. What they would need is for those officers that are capable of getting the job done into positions where they have authority to act. As for a assassination in the SL i think it is only a matter of time before that happens courtesy of the onion group.

one has a very sneaking feeling they have penetrated the inner security of those august ruling members using nanos
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Re: tech gap
Post by Somtaaw   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:35 pm

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Project Gram had some of its information getting funneled from the SLN, and that was several decades before the current time point.

And Manticore also bought subscriptions to certain tech 'magazines' for want of remembering the right term, from which it discovered the original basis of the impeller shipkiller missile with boom or burn options. From that, among other intelligence gathering, put into a shop with Jonas Adcock in charge, decanted Ghost Rider and all the goodies of the Grand Alliance.

Now granted, Manticore wasn't "at war" with the League at that point in time, and some (but not all) of that information probably came by way of Beowulf. But there are going to be Manticoran agents throughout the SLN intelligence shops, although getting that information out, and at least to Beowulf in a timely manner is a topic for another thread.



And uh, whats his name, the Al-Fa(something or another) made the observation with his little group of fellow "eyes wide open" folks, when they met in the records vault. He specifically stated "well if I were a hostile star nation, one of the first places I'd setup shop is in counter-intelligence. And Admiral (whatever it was) is incompentent."

Paraphrased slightly, but that was the general gist of what he said. Basically, he believes the SLN Intelligence Offices, on Terra, are already infested with spies, and this is the same guy who realizes Manticore has the League by the short and curlys.
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Re: tech gap
Post by kzt   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:53 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:League 'covert operations' is non-existant. They were so tied up in "we have the biggest navy, we have the best technology, nobody else can match us" they literally cannot conceive of a reason to spy on any other nation. Meanwhile.... in the Haven quadrant, Haven and Manticore have been spying and counter-spying, and counter-counter-spying for almost 50 T-years. The League is going to lose hundreds of agents who literally have no idea how to operate, against the seasoned Counter-Intelligence agencies of the Grand Alliance.

That is simply wrong. They have a very long history of carrying out covert actions. What exactly would you call what was going on in Talbott and vicinity?
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Re: tech gap
Post by George J. Smith   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:05 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
npadln wrote:So I am sure this has been discussed ad nauseam but on the issue of the tech gap between the GA and the SL, what scenarios can plausibly remedy that for the SL?

I'm thinking the first crucial step has already been taken; that is acceptance by the SL of such a gap. Indeed I believe it has become clear to all SL major players that the gap is actually a chasm.
One thing is obvious though, the SL is not without resources, and it would be more than logical to use as much of those resources as possible to close that gap. On the other hand, time; who has more influence over that critical piece of the game?

Who wants to play, devil's advocate?

The League certainly has vast resources and a general tech base that's right up there with Manticore. The problems are that they have no institutional military experience of having to improve under pressure and in response to a specific, credible threat, and that the League does not have much time left in which to develop, deploy, and learn to use new systems.

One thing they can do quickly is reprogram EW and missile tracking systems to handle the new missile environment without the equivalent of rolling up in a ball gibbering. They will still be grossly inadequate in terms of the hardware - more CM's please! and PDC's! - but at least they'd have hardware that could be much more useful within the hardware's limitations.

They may be able to tap SDF experience and technical developments if they can swallow their pride enough to do so, and if the SDF's do have technical advantages to offer, and if the SDF's are willing to share. When some of the bigger, more advanced SDF's are those of Beowulf, Beowulf-sympathetic worlds, Renaissance Factor systems, and/or Maya Sector... well, willingness to share cannot be counted on.

And they can try to deploy things outside the box. The proto-Mistletoe assassination drone used for the Cromarty Assassination in Yeltsin, for instance, could possibly serve some use attacking fixed installations and predictably moving mobile units. Given the sensor advantages the GA has, and the wariness after Oyster Bay, I doubt that's going to work well, but it's an example of something they could try that would work around the GA's missile combat dominance.

Cataphract missiles, of some varieties, do fit appropriate shipboard launchers, so if they can build and distribute them in quantity, they'd have something for long range missile fire. They'd need to have long ballistic components to match the range even approximately, their accuracy would blow chunks, and the SLN has no experience using MDM's otherwise to help. So that won't do well, but it's better than nothing and could make the vast number of SLN ships, individually, slightly dangerous.

But it comes back to time. The League does not have it. I'm sure a lot of crash R&D programs will be launched, but I'm also sure they're going to be inherited by successor states. What sort of tricks those states will have, what resources they will have to back them up, and what intentions they will have, are all good questions it'd far too early to answer.


And just how many of those systems are part of the RF with no intention of sharing anything with other systems that are not part of the RF?
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Re: tech gap
Post by JeffEngel   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:26 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:But it comes back to time. The League does not have it. I'm sure a lot of crash R&D programs will be launched, but I'm also sure they're going to be inherited by successor states. What sort of tricks those states will have, what resources they will have to back them up, and what intentions they will have, are all good questions it'd far too early to answer.


And just how many of those systems are part of the RF with no intention of sharing anything with other systems that are not part of the RF?

Some. There are close to 2000 systems in the League. There are 11 League systems in the RF, with a number more likely to join in as things fall apart. So I'm sure some of the League's crash programs will be in Alignment-controlled or -influenced systems - those eleven do represent well-industrialized ones with their own SDF's, prime candidates (from the League's POV) to assist the League in its darkest hour - and many others will be in genuinely independent ones. The genuinely independent ones do represent a vast majority numerically, after all. And the RF systems are likely to be leaving relatively early. Any crash programs started by the League between then and total collapse will be elsewhere.

For that matter, I don't know that we can count on the Renaissance Factor to remain an Alignment tool. The Alignment's being exposed far too early, and an effective opposition to it is forming. It'd be entirely possible, under the circumstances, for the RF systems to keep the Renaissance Factor and sever ties with the Alignment so as to be one more well-organized successor state with some particularly useful technological tricks, instead of riding the Detweiler Plan down in flames.
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Re: tech gap
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:11 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:And just how many of those systems are part of the RF with no intention of sharing anything with other systems that are not part of the RF?

Some. There are close to 2000 systems in the League. There are 11 League systems in the RF, with a number more likely to join in as things fall apart. So I'm sure some of the League's crash programs will be in Alignment-controlled or -influenced systems - those eleven do represent well-industrialized ones with their own SDF's, prime candidates (from the League's POV) to assist the League in its darkest hour - and many others will be in genuinely independent ones. The genuinely independent ones do represent a vast majority numerically, after all. And the RF systems are likely to be leaving relatively early. Any crash programs started by the League between then and total collapse will be elsewhere.

For that matter, I don't know that we can count on the Renaissance Factor to remain an Alignment tool. The Alignment's being exposed far too early, and an effective opposition to it is forming. It'd be entirely possible, under the circumstances, for the RF systems to keep the Renaissance Factor and sever ties with the Alignment so as to be one more well-organized successor state with some particularly useful technological tricks, instead of riding the Detweiler Plan down in flames.


Yep, only a small - an influential small, but small - portion of the population of the RF worlds is in on the Alignment plot. If the covers are pulled off the alignment to early, it could spell trouble for the leadership on those worlds as their populations rise up... or not, it just remains to be seen.

I expect the SLN's first Tech advancements will be ... stilted to say the least. We know there are hundreds, if not thousands of companies with developed the trying to sell it to the SLN.

The first thing I would do as the SLN leadership is find out who sold what to the Havenites in the 1st war, and look to field any improvements in that field and what, if any, could lead to a MDM.

The second thing I would do is call back EVERYONE who submitted a proposal over the last 2 decades - we know that a company developed that stealth killer missile used on the Queen Adrianne, which was turned down by the SLN - like the Laser Head before.

Probably only 1 in 10 items will be deployable, and 1 in 10 of those will have any real use. Most of those that will work will be ... asymmetric to modern warfare. A new kind of stealth or ECM perhaps. A new short ranged weapon or missile killer. Something potentially different and revolutionary.

The question as always will be will the SLN have time to find, refine, and deploy these new technologies.

And I think the answer will be not in any quantity, in the time they will be allowed.
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Re: tech gap
Post by JeffEngel   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:46 pm

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Theemile wrote:I expect the SLN's first Tech advancements will be ... stilted to say the least. We know there are hundreds, if not thousands of companies with developed the trying to sell it to the SLN.

The first thing I would do as the SLN leadership is find out who sold what to the Havenites in the 1st war, and look to field any improvements in that field and what, if any, could lead to a MDM.
It's another issue of swallowing pride, but what the Havenites needed and asked for would be a valuable lesson for them. The SLN suffers from simply having no idea what modern warfare demands. They've had tech advances over the last few decades that they know are useful - other people have been doing dramatic things with this fancy "laserhead" widget! - but they've got no practice with them, no idea how to work them or prioritize (e.g.) attack birds versus EW ones, EW refinements, how many missiles to mission-kill what, etc.

Haven, by contrast, has had a fairly crappy tech base and in many ways still does, by comparison, but they know better than anyone (even Manticore), how to use what they have in war nowadays. (Call it the Foraker Tradition.) More than anything else, the SLN needs that, but it's something you only get with experience or wild staffing luck that you know how to treasure and cultivate when it pops up.

The second thing I would do is call back EVERYONE who submitted a proposal over the last 2 decades - we know that a company developed that stealth killer missile used on the Queen Adrianne, which was turned down by the SLN - like the Laser Head before.

Probably only 1 in 10 items will be deployable, and 1 in 10 of those will have any real use.
And the SLN may have a sketchy ability to identify which 1 in 10, in both cases.
Most of those that will work will be ... asymmetric to modern warfare. A new kind of stealth or ECM perhaps. A new short ranged weapon or missile killer. Something potentially different and revolutionary.
In a way, that's not unlike the position of the Mesan Alignment Navy. Oh, they've worked out doctrine for the spider drive and developed things specifically to use with it. And they're well aware of its limitations and are keen to learn all they can from people with other tricks and/or more fighting practice. But in some ways, they look to have been in the position of working out military applications for two basic advances that came out of fundamental research rather than research driven by military demands. They get revolutionary stuff because hey look, it's suddenly in our toolkit, let's make violence with it.

Manticore and Project Gram are an excellent contrast for that. Gram went looking for things for specific military applications, got them, and pushed them in all the violent application directions they could find, building on a foundation of existing military practice. (Plus the wildcard of the Grayson inertial compensator.)
The question as always will be will the SLN have time to find, refine, and deploy these new technologies.

And I think the answer will be not in any quantity, in the time they will be allowed.

Yes. On the other hand, any or all of them may contribute to a less stable interstellar order after the League falls. Everyone has to be afraid of the weird, unpredictable monsters coming out of old League-funded labs, in the hands of new and themselves unstable, fearful states.
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Re: tech gap
Post by crewdude48   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:51 pm

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I would like to take a look at what the SLN can and can't do.

Pods) Already got the basic stuff.

MDMs) They probably could, right now, build two (maybe 3) drive missiles with what they have on hand. However, they would probably be the same size or bigger than the original MDMs that Manticore built. Also, probably slower. Probably could have them in production in 18 months or so. However, none of their ships could use them from tubes, so they could only use them from pods.

Grav Coms) They is textev that they have it, but can't get it in something smaller than an SD. It would probably take at least two (probably 4 to 5) years before they get it small enough and fast enough to use it tactically, not to mention in recon drones.

Compensator) With out somebody selling them the plans, the odds of figuring them out is minimal. It is possible, but not likely. Haven was working on them for something like 15 years, with absolutely no results.

SD(p)s) absolutely no technical problems building them, but it would take AT LEAST 5 years before the first one came out of the docks. And until they do, they are limited to an alpha strike of pods they can tow.

LACs & CLACs) They probably could build missile defense LACs within about 18 months, and use quickly modified freighters as CLACs. However they be nowhere as good as the GA LACs, and probably slow the fleet's best speed. Also they will not be able to stand up to the length of time that the GA can keep missile storms going.

Mini fusion bottles) Probably not without at least 5 years of research. It took the Manties decades to figure it out.

Anything I got wrong or forgot?
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Re: tech gap
Post by Somtaaw   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:20 pm

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crewdude48 wrote:I would like to take a look at what the SLN can and can't do.

Pods) Already got the basic stuff.

MDMs) They probably could, right now, build two (maybe 3) drive missiles with what they have on hand. However, they would probably be the same size or bigger than the original MDMs that Manticore built. Also, probably slower. Probably could have them in production in 18 months or so. However, none of their ships could use them from tubes, so they could only use them from pods.

Grav Coms) They is textev that they have it, but can't get it in something smaller than an SD. It would probably take at least two (probably 4 to 5) years before they get it small enough and fast enough to use it tactically, not to mention in recon drones.

Compensator) With out somebody selling them the plans, the odds of figuring them out is minimal. It is possible, but not likely. Haven was working on them for something like 15 years, with absolutely no results.

SD(p)s) absolutely no technical problems building them, but it would take AT LEAST 5 years before the first one came out of the docks. And until they do, they are limited to an alpha strike of pods they can tow.

LACs & CLACs) They probably could build missile defense LACs within about 18 months, and use quickly modified freighters as CLACs. However they be nowhere as good as the GA LACs, and probably slow the fleet's best speed. Also they will not be able to stand up to the length of time that the GA can keep missile storms going.

Mini fusion bottles) Probably not without at least 5 years of research. It took the Manties decades to figure it out.

Anything I got wrong or forgot?



Hmm, just bucklers I think. Single, and dual stage. And the single stage is dirt easy to make, it's just they need to think of it as an application.

The double stage would take a little more thought, but again something they need to actually think about, and/or see in action and actually comprehend what they saw. From the time they see it, and it gets reported to some form of BuShips, no more than 5 years for the first generation to start getting built in ships.
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Re: tech gap
Post by JeffEngel   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:49 pm

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crewdude48 wrote:I would like to take a look at what the SLN can and can't do.

Pods) Already got the basic stuff.

MDMs) They probably could, right now, build two (maybe 3) drive missiles with what they have on hand. However, they would probably be the same size or bigger than the original MDMs that Manticore built. Also, probably slower. Probably could have them in production in 18 months or so. However, none of their ships could use them from tubes, so they could only use them from pods.
They've got Cataphracts now, so that's a kind of cut-rate DDM. They're tube-launched from ships (well, some variants); the ones based on DD/CL missiles can be fired from CA/BC tubes, etc. And they are weaker, a bit near-sighted, and less likely to penetrate defenses than the missiles they are based on. So yeah... they're still the best in the SLN's arsenal now, just because two drives means theoretically comparable range under optimal conditions.
Anything I got wrong or forgot?

Tethered drones for remote telemetry from a location otherwise blocked by the wedge, i.e., the basic Keyhole; and beta-squared nodes.

That basic Keyhole would be easy - Halo is partway there already - but the power budget for many of the Manticoran uses isn't there yet.

Beta-squared nodes are likely to take awhile too, at least because they're clearly not something that occurs to people easily. (I don't have the background to comment on any other reasons it may be easy or hard for them.)
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