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Grand Alliance Fleets

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Re: Grand Alliance Fleets
Post by roseandheather   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:32 am

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munroburton wrote:Manticore and Grayson have both had their own Home Fleets for a while now without any difficulties(unless the long unmentioned RMN Second Fleet is where the Grayson Home Fleet sits in the Manticoran Alliance organisation).

Manticore has named formations after the locations they were assigned to in the past. Task Group Hancock-001 for instance.

How the GA will name its forces will depend on how they organise it. The RMN in particular has long experience telling it to keep its squadrons as homogenous as possible - but the combined political will of Elizabeth and Eloise seems to be pushing for a high degree of integration.

I doubt that's going to result in Mars-Ds running alongside Sag-Cs or Warlords joining RMN battlecruiser squadrons. More likely they'll try to keep squadrons together but use mixed task groups and task forces - at least, until and unless they all start using similar/identical future ship designs.


I agree that we're probably not going to see mixed divisions or squadrons, but task groups are a definite possibility. Personally, though, I think integration will come more on the level of personnel, once enough cross-training has gone around, a la Manticore and Grayson in the first Havenite war. Hand Honor a couple of Tourville's staff officers? Snag Abigail Hearns for Second Fleet's Ops officer?

As for naming conventions, though - as much as I adore the ongoing integration of Manticoran and Havenite society and the Grand Alliance makes me too happy for words, I do want them to maintain their identity as individual nations. I honestly do hope that Haven's equivalent of Home Fleet remains Capital Fleet, for instance, and that Second Fleet is maintained as a Havenite-led formation. The Grand Alliance is an amazing thing, but not at the cost of the star nations involved losing their identity.
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Re: Grand Alliance Fleets
Post by Hutch   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:17 am

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I concur that we won't see ships being intermixed within squadrons (no Mars'-class CA's combined with Sag-B's, for example), but I do see units working together, say, a Division of Hydra-CLAC's escorted by a Squadron of Warload-BC's.

As for naming, I think each polity will keep their Home Fleet designations for defense (and if ships from other allies join them, they will be absorbed into that fleet structure for the time they are there), but add "GF" in front of each combined operational fleet to clarify. Since these will be primarily for attack purposes, that will be the easiest way to do it. (IMHO).

So the Haven Home fleet remains the Home fleet, and if a Grayson SD Squadron joins them for a period of time, then that Grayson unit will be considered part of the Haven Home fleet. OTOH, if a combined Haven/Manticore/Grayson force hits, say, Yildun (Tourville has got to command that!), it would GF-1, while an offshoot of it going after the wormhole there (I think there is one, is there?) would be Task Force GF1.1.

As for HB's thoughts, they really belong in a different thread, so all I'll say is (1) Quantity is a quality; but sometimes the quality is 'clay pigeons' (I am reading a book about the 'Opium Wars' between England and China in the 1840's and 1860's and there are some interesting contrasts to what is going on between the SL and Manticore (now the GA).

IMHO as always; YMMV.
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Re: Grand Alliance Fleets
Post by saber964   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:53 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:I kinda hijacked the thread. The topic was GA fleet names and I got carried away in a different direction. I am sorry. But ... to answer your question, consider how Kernal Custer felt at the Battle of Little Bighorn in 1876 in the USA.

Yikes! "Look at all of those #%&!!XX Indians". Only a few percent of the engines had firearms. It did not matter. We walked the battlefield over a 3 day period. A horrible place to die. Tactically the Indians overhelmed the soldiers. My misguided point is that the Sollies can and will overwhelm the GA.

Yikes again! HB My speel check with Lenix Mint 17 Firefox Mozilla does not work with this excellent forum. I can not spelll. The house cleaner hid the useless dictionary which I can not read anyhow because the font is too darn small. Slight TIA a while back. Bear with this Old Coot. :) :) :)

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Your wrong there, Custer committed three major blunders in the battle of Little Big Horn.
1) he attacked a numerically superior force without even trying to gather intelligence on his opposition. (est 2000 vs 600)
2) he split his forces
3) he attacked a better equipped force. Custers troops had single shot breach loading rifles while 70-80% of the Indians had Henry, Remington and Winchester repeating rifles.

A fourth blunder was that Custer also left behind (because he wanted to travel fast) his pack train with ammo and a battery of gatling guns.
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Re: Grand Alliance Fleets
Post by kzt   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:55 pm

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He also made some serious errors in who he left in command of the reserves.
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Re: Grand Alliance Fleets
Post by jchilds   » Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:41 am

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Haven't we already seen a mixed nation squadrons?

CruRon 18 had both the GNS Jason Alvarez and HMS Prince Adrian, didn't it?

Also, BatDiv 62 in AoV looks like it had 2 GSN and 1 RMN SD(P)s.
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Re: Grand Alliance Fleets
Post by Dauntless   » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:22 am

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jchilds wrote:Haven't we already seen a mixed nation squadrons?

CruRon 18 had both the GNS Jason Alvarez and HMS Prince Adrian, didn't it?

Also, BatDiv 62 in AoV looks like it had 2 GSN and 1 RMN SD(P)s.


don't think its quite the same thing. Grayson has been working as part of manty fleets from almost as soon as they had enough ships to be able do so. Somewhere around flag in exile I'd say. Trying to tie in havenite forces when they've spent the last 20 years shooting at each other? very tricky
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Re: Grand Alliance Fleets
Post by munroburton   » Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:04 am

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Dauntless wrote:
jchilds wrote:Haven't we already seen a mixed nation squadrons?

CruRon 18 had both the GNS Jason Alvarez and HMS Prince Adrian, didn't it?

Also, BatDiv 62 in AoV looks like it had 2 GSN and 1 RMN SD(P)s.


don't think its quite the same thing. Grayson has been working as part of manty fleets from almost as soon as they had enough ships to be able do so. Somewhere around flag in exile I'd say. Trying to tie in havenite forces when they've spent the last 20 years shooting at each other? very tricky


Pretty much the entire modern Grayson Navy, less any captured Havenite ships, started out as Manticoran blueprints. A Jason Alvarez CA is pretty much the same as a late flight Star Knight, the BC Courvoiser same as a Reliant and the Benjamin-class SD was the final result of a long time tweaking the Sphinx-class SD.

The gap between a Prince Consort and a SK/JA wasn't huge and more importantly, they were designed and built with the possibility of working together in mind. That certainly wasn't a consideration when the Mars-D and Sag-C were created.
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Re: Grand Alliance Fleets
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:01 am

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In WW II the primary US Pacific Fleet kept switching numbers back and forth as it swapped Admirals back and forth between two men. Same fleet.

There are a lot of things stacked against the SL surviving. It isn't just the GA and friends (like the Alderman Empire plus Erwhon). The Alignment is chopping it up from the inside by directing policies and strategy though it's moles. Then there is the Rennessance Factor which is going to start pealing away systems.

The SL military can still seriously hurt the GA and other entities. While BF and FF forces may not be able to actually win too much more than specific engagements where they swamp GA forces or just get lucky, they can conduct what would essentially be scorched earth campaigns of damage up to and including EE violations in the name of protecting the League from it's enemies. That the GA (and close friends as currently constituted) have NO interest in taking posession of any SL or Shell or Verge territory as subjugated territory, that does't mean that the Mandarins or elements (Alignment sponsored or just Warlords in Waiting) in the SL and OFS are not going to just do what they think will benifit them most. The Alignment really doesn't care how many people die (other than their Star Line members) because they are planning on replacing the rest of the Human poplulation and imposing their PLAN on the known universe.
Kill 99% of the population of a planet and leave the planet to lie fallow for a couple of hundred years? No problem, when the ecological disaster of massive KEW bombardment more or less settle down, they can "reseed" it with people and living stuff as they wish.
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Re: Grand Alliance Fleets
Post by n7axw   » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:16 am

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jchilds wrote:Haven't we already seen a mixed nation squadrons?

CruRon 18 had both the GNS Jason Alvarez and HMS Prince Adrian, didn't it?

Also, BatDiv 62 in AoV looks like it had 2 GSN and 1 RMN SD(P)s.


Another consideration to throw in here... Think of the large numbers of loaner personell from Manticore serving in the GSN. That along with training officer candadates at Saganami has to be huge in terms of the GSN and RMN working together.

Don
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Re: Grand Alliance Fleets
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:50 pm

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n7axw wrote:
jchilds wrote:Haven't we already seen a mixed nation squadrons?

CruRon 18 had both the GNS Jason Alvarez and HMS Prince Adrian, didn't it?

Also, BatDiv 62 in AoV looks like it had 2 GSN and 1 RMN SD(P)s.


Another consideration to throw in here... Think of the large numbers of loaner personell from Manticore serving in the GSN. That along with training officer candadates at Saganami has to be huge in terms of the GSN and RMN working together.

Don



Another point is that CruRon 18 was earmarked for 8th Fleet, which was a joint Alliance fleet, not just RMN.

Also, the Prince Consort class didn't have a flag bridge, so they used Star Knights as squadron flagships (not enough Crusaders built); and the GSN mixed the Star Knights they bought with the Alvarez class as they were built, until they had enough of their own ships. After Cerberus, the Manti-built ships all ended up in the Protectors' Own, but that is later.

CruRon 18 only took the escort mission early so Honor wouldn't have sex with White Haven in that book. Can't interfere with plot. :o

Rob
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