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The dark side of the good guys

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Re: The dark side of the good guys
Post by Expert snuggler   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:24 am

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I'd been worried over the first few books that the good guys were portrayed as being too good. The wounds to their souls are as realistic as any other war wound, and it's going to be interesting to see if Merlin can remain sane.

Remember in the movie Lawrence of Arabia, the heavily fictionalized Lawrence said "There was something about it I didn't like" in reference to shooting a murderer, then explaining what he didn't like: "I enjoyed it".

Merlin's theatrical little touches like making his eyes glow are a hint that he's feeling the temptation to enjoy it. He doesn't like that. His self-doubts may reflect the fear of his dark side taking over.

Dude needs a confessor.
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Re: The dark side of the good guys
Post by Direwolf18   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:35 am

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Expert snuggler wrote:
Direwolf18 wrote:snip
Could Merlin have just killed them with a well placed Sniper Round through the forehead? Most likely, it doesn't however send the statement that THIS does.
snip


Taunting people before they die doesn't send a statement.

Merlin's reprisals after the massacre at that poor village sent a statement. It worked, too. Rayno had to explain to his boss that there had been a clean sweep of all the personnel involved. Clyntahn actually desisted from finishing the job when he heard about it.

Pinning someone to the wall with a seaman's dirk sends a message, with or without a nastygram pinned to the corpse.

Morally, those were people known to be guilty, unlike the Inquisitors captured on the battlefield. Morally, it was brutal warfare but not a war crime.



No but the fact that a single shooter was able to take down an entire barge full of guards and priests, get on board, and finish them off with a knife says a LOT. Any semi competent investigator could tell you if he died before or after he was nailed to the wall.

As does the stealthy assassinations, IE slipping in to the barracks and slashing their throats. Plus the fact that he tucked that note into his robes. These are men who have committed some of the most unspeakable crimes, the least Merlin could do for them is explain to them why they had to die. Common courtesy that.

And the inquisitors captured on the battlefield were proven to be guilty, they were inquisitors. That in it of itself is a death sentence now. Their one job in the army was to lead the troops in purging the heretical men, women, and children of the Republic. Did you already forget what happened to the men attempting to defend Aihvaystn, poor Charlz Stahntyn and his men?

Don't forget, there WHERE a couple of legitimate massacres that Duke Eastshare had to deal with amongst his own men after he so handily kicked Kaitswyrth's incompetent arse.
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Re: The dark side of the good guys
Post by SWM   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:56 am

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Direwolf18 wrote:
Expert snuggler wrote:Taunting people before they die doesn't send a statement.

Merlin's reprisals after the massacre at that poor village sent a statement. It worked, too. Rayno had to explain to his boss that there had been a clean sweep of all the personnel involved. Clyntahn actually desisted from finishing the job when he heard about it.

Pinning someone to the wall with a seaman's dirk sends a message, with or without a nastygram pinned to the corpse.

Morally, those were people known to be guilty, unlike the Inquisitors captured on the battlefield. Morally, it was brutal warfare but not a war crime.



No but the fact that a single shooter was able to take down an entire barge full of guards and priests, get on board, and finish them off with a knife says a LOT. Any semi competent investigator could tell you if he died before or after he was nailed to the wall.

Rayno's investigation concluded that there were multiple assassins, not just one. Merlin left evidence of multiple people.
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Re: The dark side of the good guys
Post by Expert snuggler   » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:16 pm

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McGuiness wrote:<snip>
What hasn't been mentioned is the fact that Mychail Staynair gave every inquisitor the option to renounce his position and leave that bloodthirsty organization by a certain date, and those who didn't do that would have chosen the fate they eventually receive.

His "God's Day" declaration was plastered on the walls of every major city by OWL's remotes, and I'm certain that the vast majority of inquisitors know what Charis will do them if they're captured or come withing sniper's distance on the battlefield.

<snip>


That is a telling point that I had missed. That makes it different from the Commissar Order.
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Re: The dark side of the good guys
Post by Joat42   » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:24 am

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Expert snuggler wrote:I'd been worried over the first few books that the good guys were portrayed as being too good. The wounds to their souls are as realistic as any other war wound, and it's going to be interesting to see if Merlin can remain sane.

Remember in the movie Lawrence of Arabia, the heavily fictionalized Lawrence said "There was something about it I didn't like" in reference to shooting a murderer, then explaining what he didn't like: "I enjoyed it".

Merlin's theatrical little touches like making his eyes glow are a hint that he's feeling the temptation to enjoy it. He doesn't like that. His self-doubts may reflect the fear of his dark side taking over.

Dude needs a confessor.

We know Merlin is plagued by guilt by what he have been forced to do in his quest to save humanity, it comes through loud and clear when he activates the 2nd backup of Nimue and only gives her edited information from his memories because he wanted to spare her his experiences.

And he have a confessor, Maikel Staynair - although it doesn't seem he choose to exercise that option very well.

In my opinion, Merlin will deactivate himself when it's clear the Gbaba isn't a threat anymore.

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Re: The dark side of the good guys
Post by Glowfish   » Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:36 pm

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Expert snuggler wrote:Is anyone else troubled that Merlin doesn't simply kill Church thugs, but fills their final seconds in this life with terror and an attack on their lifetime of faith?

Taking his side for a moment, there are things he needs to get off his chest, and he can only tell them to someone who will take them to the grave. Still, telling the dying that they are about to go to Hell is an unnecessary cruelty.



Not really, why would i?
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Re: The dark side of the good guys
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:43 pm

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It's pretty different from a blindfold and a cigarette!
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Re: The dark side of the good guys
Post by alj_sf   » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:03 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
n7axw wrote:The current policy with repect to inquisitors was declared from the pulpit of the cathredral in Telesberg by no less than the ultimate good guy, Archbishop Maikel, in the aftermath of the murder of Manthyr and his people. Presumably that was worked out in the inner circle by the initiative of the crown.

I understand the why of the policy. But I am uncomfortable with it. I think it should be changed. Punishment should be restricted to actual criminal behavior.

Don

I agree. However... Are there likely to be inquisitors who are not conspirators to the summary execution of people for the "crime" of exercising freedom of thought or conscience? I have to think there's a serious presumption of guilt that's fair on Safehold at this time for inquisitors that way. And they are unlikely all to be practically able to be kept in custody with specific evidence gathered before a court that can deliver all the niceties of the law.

There's a war on and the rule of law is going to get bruised pretty badly, where you don't just suspend a lot of the expectations of it.

If and when the ICA can find the one honest inquisitor out there who is doing his best not to be Clyntahn's hand on Safehold's throat, I hope that they can suspend that judgment in his case. But if it should happen that, say, Staiphan Maik really shouldn't be lumped in with so much of the rest of the Inquisition, it may be asking too much of Charis' tolerance and access and availability of the information to exonerate him to spare him what too many others deserve.

Justice is going to have to be a rough approximation here, at best.


Actually, I think Staiphan Maik is not concerned with the "shoot first, ask question never" order. It is inquisitors who are are on death watch, he is an intendant. Sure he is part of the inquisition and a Shullerite, but not in an inquisition role. That makes a difference.

Of course, he will have to talk fast when captured, especially if it is Simmarkians which take him.
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Re: The dark side of the good guys
Post by ETathome   » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:57 am

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Something to remember about this topic is that this is a religious war. In such a conflict, justice is often the first casualty. It's not the journey through the war that concerns me, but the aftermath. How do the governments and individuals react to what was done? Do they justify it or seek absolution?

Ethan
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Re: The dark side of the good guys
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:26 am

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ETathome wrote:Something to remember about this topic is that this is a religious war. In such a conflict, justice is often the first casualty. It's not the journey through the war that concerns me, but the aftermath. How do the governments and individuals react to what was done? Do they justify it or seek absolution?

Ethan


Yes. This is a religious war. But it is also a war to preserve and enhance the power of Zhasphar Clyntahn. That will become appa.rent not only to his enemies but to his allies. Religion is being used to cement his power.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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