Discrediting the COGA - How?

Trying to break reverence head-on might not work, but what about gradual undermining?

Start some catchy drinking songs about high-living vicars, and have touring puppet shows about Inquisitor Clouseau.

It would only be a small step, but a vital one.

Then get a good-tsar-wicked-advisers idea into circulation so that people can fight against the Church while still convincing themselves that they're loyal to it.

cralkhi wrote:

Expert snuggler wrote:Drama is not enough. There's a reason I picked Japan as an example.

Well, I would say Japan's culture did change - functionally - even though not everyone was convinced.

A major reason that Japan was able to change was that the Emperor himself denounced the belief in his godhood for everyone to hear. Not everyone accepted that, but it was enough to convince the Japanese government to surrender and end WWII.

I suppose one of the major archangels could return and tell everyone that the whole church was a fraud, but a much lower percentage of the population would believe him/her than the Japanese believed their emperor, so it wouldn't be nearly as effective. It would probably still take a generation or two for the falsehood of the CoGA to be generally accepted, and there would still be adherents a century or two down the road.

It's the most workable solution I've been able to come up with, even if it would be a bit of Deux ex Machina, but RFC has been hinting about something like this via the return of the Archangels and the mysteries of the Temple basement for the entire series. We're primed for something dramatic to happen, since there's no obvious way to disproved the CoGA in a manner that the general populace will accept.

There may have to be an endlessly unstable middle ground where people pay lip service to the Church and do what they want, then find theological rationalizations if they need to. All the Abrahamic faiths have unenforced provisions which are conveniently ignored.

Expert snuggler wrote:There may have to be an endlessly unstable middle ground where people pay lip service to the Church and do what they want, then find theological rationalizations if they need to. All the Abrahamic faiths have unenforced provisions which are conveniently ignored.

I realize that religion is one of those "thou shalt not discuss" topics here in the forums, so I'll tread very carefully. I'll merely observe that the New Testament did away with most of the provisions that are routinely ignored by every schism of Christianity. So a good deal of the book of Leviticus is deemed to have applied specifically to the people to whom those instructions were given, and no longer applied after the coming of Christ, who personally said that the old law had been done away with.

No rationalization, it's right there in the text. And I'll leave it at that.

On Safehold the Proscriptions are perhaps the best example of rationalization - an intendant who's been given a large bribe to approve a new invention is going to twist the Proscriptions until they squeal to grant the required approval and earn his bribe. Other vicars and the Safeholdian in the street may roll their eyes at the "logic" that was used, but apparently the decision always stands.

The corruption of the vicarate is making it easier and easier for regular people to think "that doesn't apply to me." Long term, this process would have undermined and ultimately destroyed the CoGA, which would likely have splintered even without the Go4 and Merlin speeding up the process. It has been off the rails for a couple of centuries after all.

It was indeed on the same kind of trajectory as the old Soviet Union, with cynicism steadily growing at the expense of the beliefs that had given the government legitimacy.

Oh, dear, all Merlin needs to do is successfully introduce the idea of "indulgences". Then the official Church has a financial incentive to allow innovation, and I hear they've been having some tough times with money lately.

They have them already, what they are called I don't recall offhand. Irys mentioned that her father paid for quite a few of them.
As for innovation, technically if it does not violate the proscriptions, or the other archangelic codes, it does not require a dispensation, but an attestation, which is a matter for a local intendent. The difference being that an attestation is a document that says, this is not in violation of the writ, and has no specific reason to forbid it, rather than a dispensation which says that you are allowed to violate the proscriptions in a prescribed manner.
This was one of the points about the luck of having Paityr Wylsynn in Charis, he actually did his job, and was effectively unquestionable so long as his fact were right.
The CoGA is into dispensations rather than attestations, partly because they were planning to turn back the clock, and partly because they were originally trying to wave the 'Charis is in violation flag'.

Expert snuggler wrote:It was indeed on the same kind of trajectory as the old Soviet Union, with cynicism steadily growing at the expense of the beliefs that had given the government legitimacy.

Oh, dear, all Merlin needs to do is successfully introduce the idea of "indulgences". Then the official Church has a financial incentive to allow innovation, and I hear they've been having some tough times with money lately.

Hi JMSeeley,

I'm sorry, I thought I'd responded to your post month's ago.

Given the rather large combat limitations I expect the MHoG to have, especially against the new ICA weapons, more powerful mortars, explosives, mines and breech loading artillery [and that's just so far!], I don't think the Go4 is going to be able to stop the allies anywhere short of the temple.

Thus the eastern KotTL and 'Border States' will be conquered by the allies [so they will have access to the temple], or the BS are replaced by sympathetic new nations that follow their lead, if Siddarmark doesn't incorporate them directly; a training period of citizen ship on their own might be educational before they vote again whether to join the RoS.

Who knows, if Paityr arrives with the key etc, will he and Merlin be able to enter the temple safely, show Rhobair the CoGA is false and turn the OBS off?

L

jmseeley wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

I've often wondered the same myself, that after all the hoopla, fear and planning, it was hamstrung by something that was overlooked, or someone died before they passed along some crucial bit of information etc.

I'm not sure the great reveal is 17 or 20 years in the future, RFC mentioned Cayleb might accidentally allude to it much earlier than planned.

Perhaps the Inner Circle will deliberately reveal the truth. Say the war ends with a treaty that doesn't give them access to the Temple, so they assume that the Archangels will return on schedule. The best approach might be to spend the next 10 years laying the groundwork as best they can, make the reveal as big and spectacular as the OBS will allow, and have the (roughly) next 5 years to deal with the consequences. By the time the Archangels return the milk is so completely spilt there's no way they can mop it up.

jms

McGuiness wrote:I realize that religion is one of those "thou shalt not discuss" topics here in the forums, so I'll tread very carefully. I'll merely observe that the New Testament did away with most of the provisions that are routinely ignored by every schism of Christianity. So a good deal of the book of Leviticus is deemed to have applied specifically to the people to whom those instructions were given, and no longer applied after the coming of Christ, who personally said that the old law had been done away with.

No rationalization, it's right there in the text. And I'll leave it at that.

On Safehold the Proscriptions are perhaps the best example of rationalization - an intendant who's been given a large bribe to approve a new invention is going to twist the Proscriptions until they squeal to grant the required approval and earn his bribe. Other vicars and the Safeholdian in the street may roll their eyes at the "logic" that was used, but apparently the decision always stands.

The corruption of the vicarate is making it easier and easier for regular people to think "that doesn't apply to me." Long term, this process would have undermined and ultimately destroyed the CoGA, which would likely have splintered even without the Go4 and Merlin speeding up the process. It has been off the rails for a couple of centuries after all.

And this is why the whole point of this thread is completely unnecessary. Merlin and company don't need any scheme or plan to discredit the CoGA. The Church has been doing that by itself with all the rampant corruption and Clyntahn's excesses are only accelerating that.

Just look how easy the Inner Circle inducts new members. Because of the current Church's example, literally EVERY inductee winds up accepting that yes, the "Archangels" were really mortal men and women pretending to be such. Once you can accept that high Church officials can twist the Church and religion in general for their own nefarious purposes, it's no great leap to generalize from high Church officials to the Archangels themselves.

All Merlin and company need to do is to keep at what they're already doing. Emphasize a personal relationship with God. Teach people to think critically. Promote toleration of contrary opinions. And most of all, be the shining beacon of goodness and morality that the Church is so visibly NOT.

evilauthor wrote:

McGuiness wrote:I realize that religion is one of those "thou shalt not discuss" topics here in the forums, so I'll tread very carefully. I'll merely observe that the New Testament did away with most of the provisions that are routinely ignored by every schism of Christianity. So a good deal of the book of Leviticus is deemed to have applied specifically to the people to whom those instructions were given, and no longer applied after the coming of Christ, who personally said that the old law had been done away with.

No rationalization, it's right there in the text. And I'll leave it at that.

On Safehold the Proscriptions are perhaps the best example of rationalization - an intendant who's been given a large bribe to approve a new invention is going to twist the Proscriptions until they squeal to grant the required approval and earn his bribe. Other vicars and the Safeholdian in the street may roll their eyes at the "logic" that was used, but apparently the decision always stands.

The corruption of the vicarate is making it easier and easier for regular people to think "that doesn't apply to me." Long term, this process would have undermined and ultimately destroyed the CoGA, which would likely have splintered even without the Go4 and Merlin speeding up the process. It has been off the rails for a couple of centuries after all.

And this is why the whole point of this thread is completely unnecessary. Merlin and company don't need any scheme or plan to discredit the CoGA. The Church has been doing that by itself with all the rampant corruption and Clyntahn's excesses are only accelerating that.

Just look how easy the Inner Circle inducts new members. Because of the current Church's example, literally EVERY inductee winds up accepting that yes, the "Archangels" were really mortal men and women pretending to be such. Once you can accept that high Church officials can twist the Church and religion in general for their own nefarious purposes, it's no great leap to generalize from high Church officials to the Archangels themselves.

All Merlin and company need to do is to keep at what they're already doing. Emphasize a personal relationship with God. Teach people to think critically. Promote toleration of contrary opinions. And most of all, be the shining beacon of goodness and morality that the Church is so visibly NOT.

B-I-N-G-O

Isilith wrote:B-I-N-G-O

And Mahkdahnald was his name-o!