Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay

namelessfly wrote:The INVICTUS extended the pod core forward and armored the interior, giving it more offensive missile capacity and making it more survivable. Total pods carried is about 1,000.

Where did you get 1000 pods from?

I allready posted another Quote of DW about the subject:

One of the differences between the Invictus and the Harrington-B design is that the Harrington-Bs accept a lower standard of protection. They’re probably just a tad less tough than the old DNs, whereas the Invictus-class, with a somewhat smaller designed missile loadout and an even larger hull, is probably actually at least as tough — or even tougher than — the old, pre-pod SDs. You might think of the Harrington-Bs as the Iowa-class and the Invictus as the Montana or Yamato. Of course, they have some good points that weren’t part of the original Invictus design, either, and they are definitely going to have an effect on how future designs evolve.


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"somewhat smaller" doesnt sound like half of the Medusa B capacity.

Star Knight wrote:I said that the Manticoran Alliance has enough missiles in the magazines of their podlayers to kill every Solarian warship. It only starts there.

After Second Manticore the Sollys wont be able do decide anything because their political structure will collaps.
But taking out what Allies? Grayson, the Andermani? Both can beat any Solarian fleet deployed against their Home Systems with ease.
Some backwater system nobody cares about like Zanzibar? Give me a break. The Sollies wont attack a strategically unimportant neobarb star nation somewhere between Manticore und Haven. The Grand Alliance would just send a detachment and kick them out.
So, stretegically thinking, there is no need to protect Manticoran Allies. This is not the Havanite Wars. We are talking about arrogant Sollies and a totally different theatre of operation. Attacking Manticoran Allies will just result in losing ships to no gain.
Manticoran Backyard can be protected by Havanite units, Grayson Home Fleet detachments or old style Manticoran Superdreadnoughts. No need for Manticoran podlayers.

Yes, Case Lacoon will result in the Mantis losing money. Dont blame me, it wasnt my idea. DW came up with it.
And its only the beginning. Case Lacoon will results in an economic collapse of epic scale.
Manticore losing money wont mean shit cause after the economy of the League collapsed their wont be any hard currency anymore to weigh the Manticoran Dollar against.
The overall result will be billions if not trillions dead due to sickness and starvation, wars and crime mankind to an extent hasnt seen for thousands of years, for many solarian worlds it ll mean the end of civilization.
So yeah, the Mantis will lose money and trade. A really shocking outlook in comparison.

The Solly tech is not only years off. They are decades behind when it comes to acutal R&D getting things done. Mantis have no production atm, yes. But they still have their R&D. All of their research teams got away before Oyster Bay, they can restart research tomorrow if they feel like it.
So while they ll have some problems with implementing new stuff for the next couple of tyears, they can research.
The sollies wont have a chance of catching up. They dont have a coordinated R&D effort. They dont have the infrastructure to build new thousands of new warships. Yes, thousands. Cause Weber in his infinite wisdom chose to end the Havanite War then and there. No the League has not only some 400 Manticoran Alliance Wallers against it (most of them with Apollo) but the entire RHN. Hundreds upon Hundreds of addtional Wallers, way better than anything the Sollies can hope to field in a long time.
No matter how you put it, the Sollies are done. The Manticoran Alliance can destroy them without much fighting.
The political structure of the Leauge between Maya and the MA is about to collapse anyway, add Lacoon and Second Manticore to the mix and it will just implode in the next 5 tyears. Maybe even sooner.
I dont see a way for the League to survive as a coherent political structure.
The Sollie wont be able to activate the reserves. For what if Manticore and Haven blow them out of space without sweat? Not even the Solly Admirals are stupid enough to do something like that.
So like it said, nobody there to have a decent war with.

Dane Dryss wrote:You have said that Manticore has the missiles to kill the Sollies. However once again this is war and not I am going to kill you right now. What happens if the Sollies after the Second Battle of Manticore decide to take out the allies of Manticore. If as you say Manticore goes off with all their missiles to take out the Sollies that will leave all of Manticores allies open. Unless of course you leave units behind to protect them. But then you won't have all the missiles you need.
And once they take the wormholes not only do the Sollies lose the use to trade with them, the Manties loose all the money that came from that trade. Manitcore is rich because of the amount of wormholes it controls. And a lot of the money comes from the Solly trade. So the Sollies would not be the only ones to feel the financial pinch (on top of what the markets will do after OB).
And about the tech being years off? Well it will be years before Manticore can start getting back to production again. And as you say the missiles will come sooner, yes they will. But if you spend all the ammo and don't have the replacements right after you use them and the enemy finds you? Well you get I am sorry but you die kind of thing. That is why when you go to war you don't just bring the ammo in the weapons, you also bring reloads. And since the Manties do not have reloads, what happens when the ammo runs out for ships?
Yes the ship have great missile defense but if the Sollies want to not come into energy range they can just blow the Manties out of the water with full missile magazines and reloads for years.

Yeah who cares about friends in back off worlds. Who cares what happens to other people. The Sollies have said that even if they were in the wrong they have to show that nobody @#%$@ with them. Don't you think that they would leave allies alone when it will hurt Manticore if all their allies started to drop off? And I am not talking about Grayson or Andermani. I have to say that what you are proposing is almost like something the late Janecek would think up.
And right now their tech is a decade off. But they have the yards and the money to make that tech really fast. It took us under 10 years to get to the moon after JFK told them to do it. Do you think with the size of the Sollies they will not be able to upgrade even faster?
And about them falling apart? Well that is speculation that they will fall apart. The war might very well strengthen the Sollies and make them more determined to catch up with Manticore tech.

The amount of hyperbole used to describe Lacoon reminds me of the discussions we had of Oyster Bay where people were claiming the entire Manticore system would soon fall apart due to lack of maintenance and starvation would prowl all the planets. Yes Lacoon is going to put the thumbscrews on the League economy. No it's not going to directly lead to the mass starvation of the entire League.

The fact that Montana exports beef is not indicative of food supply of the entire League. Beef is a luxury item. It's expensive to raise since they both need to be fed, raised, then slaughtered. They are a land intensive animal because they both need space to roam, and there's also the space required to raise the food to feed the cow. Shipping the beef back to markets in the League isn't a problem since good beef is aged for 1 or 2 months before being cooked, so sitting in a freighter is not a problem.

Plant foods, on the otherhand, are fairly cheap to bring to market from local sources. Hydroponics and orbital farms have been mentioned as cheap areas for growing food even if there is no land on the planet to grow it. Fresh food also go bad unless preserved somehow (freezing, canning, etc). I'm sure most people would prefer having fresh food at least some of the time compared to a diet of all frozen or preserved food.

Taking the two statements above, it is not unreasonable to assume that while some food is imported, much of it is produced locally.

@Dane Dryss

I dont know who cares about your backwater friends. The Mantis sure don’t.
Remember At All Costs when everyone was bitching about the need to reinforce those strategically worthless star systems?
The Mantis will be glad if they all leave the Alliance and declare themselves neutral.

Yes, I believe the Sollies wont look at those “Allies”. That’s not how they think. We are talking Sollies here, not Havies. This is not another Havanite War, the Sollies have an entirely different perspective on the theatre of operations. Their goal is to conquer Manticore in a way that sets an example. A long first Havanite war style campaign wont be in their books. They don’t even know how to conduct a war on such a scale! War for them means you put together a Battlefleet contingent and blow your opposition out of space in one single battle. That’s it.
They don’t in the long campaign, war of attrition business since it would be politically desasterous anyway. Most likely they cant even maintain a decent supply chain to contingents deployed in star systems between Manticore and Haven.

Don’t Janecek me. I don’t care what he would have done or did. I just say it as it is, if Janecek happens to concour with me he happens to be right. How shocking. Not all of his politics were bad.
With regards to the Manticoran allies he was right to some extend. Sure it was BS to alienate Grayson und Erewhon but the rest of the pack? Just analyse the deployed of forces in the Second Havanite War. So many Alliance BatRons tied up defending Manticoran Allies for politically reasons. They Mantis could have formed another fleet with those Squadrons!

The tech of some solarian firms is only a decade off in some specific areas. If you look at the deployed tech the gap is much, much larger. The same goes for tech that is know to governmental institutions. It doesn’t help the League a bit if Technodyne has good technology. They don’t have any infrastructure in place to get a decent R&D process going.
No coordination, no centralized research process, nothing. Just some big cooperations who do their own thing (and are controlled by Mesans).
So no, they cant rearm quickly. They don’t have any yards for mass warship production. They don’t have the ability to get any new developments into production quickly. For many many centuries they build very very little and very slowly.
You cant change that overnight even under ideal conditions.
It ll take them two tdecades to begin catching up to Manticore / Haven.

But you know, that’s all totally irrelevant. Cause they wont have the time to get anything like that going. Their economy will collaps when Manticore conquers the Junctions. For the Solarians who saw nothing but an entire millennia (!) without war it will be the end of history.
When the Solarian League collapses they will all look for themselves. Pretty soon they will fighting each instead of Manticore. The death toll will be in the billions in no time. Starvation, sickness, war, crime, collaps of governments, misery and poverty of epic proportions.
Future historians wont congratulate Manticore on destroying the League. They will critize them and rightly so. In an effort to defend their little Star Kingdom with a couple of billion inhabitants they want to destroy the biggest and greatest government mankind has ever seen.
Oh sure the League is not perfect. Nobody says so. But look at what mankind did accomplish in their effort since the foundation of the League a millennia ago. They conquered the stars an ushered in an area of peace and prosperity for trillions of humans.
Now Manticore wants to destroy this institution in order to preserve their freedom.
Who gives them the right to do so? Its funny nobody has a problem with it.

But anyway, the important thing is, the Solarian League is done. What follows will be an Age of Darkness.
And when the smoke clears the galaxy will see two lights in this darkness. The Grand Manticoran Alliance and the Renaissance Factor.
Then we can have a decent war. The Sollies wont be an issue after Laccoon and Second Manticore.

@Duckk
I dont believe for a second that Solarian League planets are self-sufficient. Sure, food is produced locally as well, no question.
But that doesnt mean that they are not hauling grain and meat between the stars. This is just basic capitalism. It will be done if you can make money from it. And you can, no question about it.
Just think Grayson. Many Leage planets wont even be able to grow food in the alien enviroment.
Anyway, nobody said every planet will starve.
Of course thats bullshit. But IMO if you shut down the Wormhole Network (and get the RMMM home) the Solarian economy will collapse. Not just "prowl" but collapse. Imagine what would happen to the world if their is no more air traffic and ship journey will take three or four time as long on average. Nevermind the active warfare here and there. It will be a disaster unmatched in history.

Star Knight wrote:@Dane Dryss

I dont know who cares about your backwater friends. The Mantis sure don’t.
Remember At All Costs when everyone was bitching about the need to reinforce those strategically worthless star systems?
The Mantis will be glad if they all leave the Alliance and declare themselves neutral.

Yes, I believe the Sollies wont look at those “Allies”. That’s not how they think. We are talking Sollies here, not Havies. This is not another Havanite War, the Sollies have an entirely different perspective on the theatre of operations. Their goal is to conquer Manticore in a way that sets an example. A long first Havanite war style campaign wont be in their books. They don’t even know how to conduct a war on such a scale! War for them means you put together a Battlefleet contingent and blow your opposition out of space in one single battle. That’s it.
They don’t in the long campaign, war of attrition business since it would be politically desasterous anyway. Most likely they cant even maintain a decent supply chain to contingents deployed in star systems between Manticore and Haven.

Don’t Janecek me. I don’t care what he would have done or did. I just say it as it is, if Janecek happens to concour with me he happens to be right. How shocking. Not all of his politics were bad.
With regards to the Manticoran allies he was right to some extend. Sure it was BS to alienate Grayson und Erewhon but the rest of the pack? Just analyse the deployed of forces in the Second Havanite War. So many Alliance BatRons tied up defending Manticoran Allies for politically reasons. They Mantis could have formed another fleet with those Squadrons!

The tech of some solarian firms is only a decade off in some specific areas. If you look at the deployed tech the gap is much, much larger. The same goes for tech that is know to governmental institutions. It doesn’t help the League a bit if Technodyne has good technology. They don’t have any infrastructure in place to get a decent R&D process going.
No coordination, no centralized research process, nothing. Just some big cooperations who do their own thing (and are controlled by Mesans).
So no, they cant rearm quickly. They don’t have any yards for mass warship production. They don’t have the ability to get any new developments into production quickly. For many many centuries they build very very little and very slowly.
You cant change that overnight even under ideal conditions.
It ll take them two tdecades to begin catching up to Manticore / Haven.

But you know, that’s all totally irrelevant. Cause they wont have the time to get anything like that going. Their economy will collaps when Manticore conquers the Junctions. For the Solarians who saw nothing but an entire millennia (!) without war it will be the end of history.
When the Solarian League collapses they will all look for themselves. Pretty soon they will fighting each instead of Manticore. The death toll will be in the billions in no time. Starvation, sickness, war, crime, collaps of governments, misery and poverty of epic proportions.
Future historians wont congratulate Manticore on destroying the League. They will critize them and rightly so. In an effort to defend their little Star Kingdom with a couple of billion inhabitants they want to destroy the biggest and greatest government mankind has ever seen.
Oh sure the League is not perfect. Nobody says so. But look at what mankind did accomplish in their effort since the foundation of the League a millennia ago. They conquered the stars an ushered in an area of peace and prosperity for trillions of humans.
Now Manticore wants to destroy this institution in order to preserve their freedom.
Who gives them the right to do so? Its funny nobody has a problem with it.

But anyway, the important thing is, the Solarian League is done. What follows will be an Age of Darkness.
And when the smoke clears the galaxy will see two lights in this darkness. The Grand Manticoran Alliance and the Renaissance Factor.
Then we can have a decent war. The Sollies wont be an issue after Laccoon and Second Manticore.

@Duckk
I dont believe for a second that Solarian League planets are self-sufficient. Sure, food is produced locally as well, no question.
But that doesnt mean that they are not hauling grain and meat between the stars. This is just basic capitalism. It will be done if you can make money from it. And you can, no question about it.
Just think Grayson. Many Leage planets wont even be able to grow food in the alien enviroment.
Anyway, nobody said every planet will starve.
Of course thats bullshit. But IMO if you shut down the Wormhole Network (and get the RMMM home) the Solarian economy will collapse. Not just "prowl" but collapse. Imagine what would happen to the world if their is no more air traffic and ship journey will take three or four time as long on average. Nevermind the active warfare here and there. It will be a disaster unmatched in history.

You seem to know everything that is going to happen. And I am saying that there is other ways things will turn out. You say that Janecek had good policies. Other then his need for LACs what would be those great policies? And even if he had some good ones the bad one (most of his were) far outweighed the small good ones. And yes Manticore cares for its allies. They bitched because they wanted more ships. I bitch when I want another sandwich but my GF has the last two pieces of bread. Does not mean I don't care for her.

As far as the Sollies are concerned, yes they show up and destroy and take over if you get in their way. But that attitude will only take them til they get reamed at Manticore. Then what will they do? CHANGE TACTICS. Even stupid commanders after two huge defeats will change tactics. And what will they do to change tactics? Well lets see.....Can't get Manticore because of the defences, lets go for the smaller targets and get them out of the way so that Manticore will not have ALLIES TO COME TO HELP.

And the tech? The Sollies have the facilities to make weapons and ships. So it will only be a year or maybe two before they get into production tech near as good as Manticore.

As far as the economy I am fairly sure that the loss of trade will effect them but not to the point of collapse. There is so many systems in the League that the collapse you say is going to happen fast won't. Only way it collapses that fast is with Government change. And Mesa won't do that when they find out about Haven and Manticore being allies. And who cares what future historians will say?

And for you to say that Manticore wants to destroy them? That is a pile of dog %#@^. They tried everything they could not to start a war. Who started the war? Oh yeah the "ushers of peace".

Who is this "decent" war going to be with?

Lets face it. You just want to argue till everyone sees only your opinion. This started when I thought why not use the Havenites to guard and take wormholes. I think that we are both stuck in our own opinions on how things work out.

If Janacek had backed his neglect of allies with formal dissolution of the alliance, that might have been a good policy. That would have let Alizon and Zanzibar and others make separate peace with the Havenites and reduced the burden of defense both in the cease fire and in the second war. Behaving officially that way might even have reduced how much the GSN was pissed off (if you dissolve the relationship and THEN stop sharing information, it at least isn't insulting)

The way he did it though was the worst of both worlds. Erehwon didn't need to be defended in the 2nd war, but everyone else still needed to be, while they had a legacy of distrust and anger to work through.

You just say that the League will crush Manticore eventually if they got the time. Iam nto disputing that. Manticore is toast if they don’t destroy the League. But the thing is, the League is done. Case Lacoon will finish them.

I never said Janecek policies weren’t overall. They were, no question about it. But it doesn’t change the fact that he got some things right. Another example besides LACs would be the the increased production of smaller units. The RMN never had enough Cruisers. If you look at the first battles of the first war they could have minimized losses in later battles with more screening units.

Manticore know now that their Allies are a liability and not an asset. If they could they would get rid of them. As im sure they will.

Yes, Solly tactics will result in Solly fleets getting destroyed. That doesn’t mean however that Sollys will change tactics. They cant. They don’t have the political capital to burn for a war of attrition against Manticore.
But that doesn’t even matter since your great tactic wont work. The Mantis wont deploy Apollo capable ships do defend their allies. They didn’t do it in the Secon Havanite War and they wont do it here.
Haven and third rate Alliance Wallers will defend the Alliance Worlds. The battle results will be the same. Your solly fleet detachments will get destroyed one by one while Eighth Fleet will conquer SOL.
Let me explain it from another perspective.
Strategically Manticore is in a smiliar position as Israel in 1967 before the Six Day War.
You have an enemy against you (Egypt, Jordan, Syria with various Arab allies) outnumbering you 3 to 1 in men, tanks and aircraft. And that’s just the first wave of Arab Armies at your border.
To make it worse your forces are of poorer quality, the Arabs got the latest Soviet stuff while Israel had a mixture of French armaments and old second world war equipment. So your relative combat power is even worse than the actual numbers.
Setting all politics aside, from a purely military perspective there was only one option for the Israelis.
Go to war on their terms and end it as fast and as decisively as possible.
The IDF needs to destroy the Arab Armies in the field, a longer war of attrition will result in arab victory. They just have more resources.
You cannot fight a defensive war against an enemy outnumbering you in every relevant category.
It was true for the Israelis, it was true in both World Wars.
And its true here.
So now look at your great tactic again. Youre suggesting that Manticore should react to Solly action. This will be their doom. They have to dictate the war. They cannot go into the corner and wait for Solly action. Their only hope is to crush the League asap. So if they have to chose between losing some allied Star Systems and not being able to attack the League directly, they will sacrifice the Allied Star Systems.

The Sollies have facilities to make a handful of ships. They are not prepared for mass production at all. Their implementation of new technologies takes forever and then some. They are so slow, they have no idea how fast Manticore or Haven can produce. They have no centralized R&D process whatsoever. Hell, they don’t even know that they need one! It will take years to organize the development of new technologies. Then it will take even more time to actually develop something able to combat Apollo equipped units. And then you need to build a fleet of ships with such a capability.
Two decades at best.

The Legaue economy will collapse within a tyear if Manticore conquers the Junctions. It doesn’t matter how many planets there are, if there is no real trade anymore they are done. Sectors and Star Systems will start looking for themselves and be on each others throat in no time.
And make no mistake, Mesa needs the League to fall. Nothing is worse for them than a League conquering the Haven Sector.

Manticore wants to destroy the League now. It doesn’t matter who started it (that would be vertain Admiral Gold Peak right?), its only relevant what happens now.

And I don’t care if someone agrees with me or not. I argue cause its fun.

@Star Knight
I will only address the Israel war. They had Nukes. End of story. If Israel lost the ground war boom. All the other countries would die. So you point is moot as far as that war is concerned. Nobody in Honorverse has a "Death Star" or a "Planet Cracker".
But I am done debating these points. We have two opposing views that neither will back down from.
I wish you well in future debates.

Dane Dryss wrote: @Star Knight
I will only address the Israel war. They had Nukes. End of story.

Well acutally they had no nukes during the Six Day War. Various sources disagree but at best they had a couple of crude nuclear devices, kinda unusable in combat.
There was talk about setting of a nuclear explosion as a deterrent but that suggestion (came from Peres if i remember correctly) went nowhere for obvious reasons.
Full scale weapons prodcutions started after the Six Day War.
Your are most likely talking about the Yom Kippur War in 1973. There was talk about a limited nuclear strike and a nuclear alert was issued. But i was mainly politics to free American aid (which worked and saved them).

Dane Dryss wrote: So you point is moot as far as that war is concerned. Nobody in Honorverse has a "Death Star" or a "Planet Cracker".

Actually everyone has them. Its called an impeller wedge. There is a reason fo the eridani edict.
If you dont like the six day war you can look at what the Japanese did in 1941/42. Or Germany in 1940 against France and 1941 against the Soviet Union. Military speaking its the same strategic situation.

Star Knight wrote:

Dane Dryss wrote: @Star Knight
I will only address the Israel war. They had Nukes. End of story.

Well acutally they had no nukes during the Six Day War. Various sources disagree but at best they had a couple of crude nuclear devices, kinda unusable in combat.
There was talk about setting of a nuclear explosion as a deterrent but that suggestion (came from Peres if i remember correctly) went nowhere for obvious reasons.
Full scale weapons prodcutions started after the Six Day War.
Your are most likely talking about the Yom Kippur War in 1973. There was talk about a limited nuclear strike and a nuclear alert was issued. But i was mainly politics to free American aid (which worked and saved them).

Dane Dryss wrote: So you point is moot as far as that war is concerned. Nobody in Honorverse has a "Death Star" or a "Planet Cracker".

Actually everyone has them. Its called an impeller wedge. There is a reason fo the eridani edict.
If you dont like the six day war you can look at what the Japanese did in 1941/42. Or Germany in 1940 against France and 1941 against the Soviet Union. Military speaking its the same strategic situation.

Wow you seem to be incapable of not arguing. They never made their own Nukes. We gave them Nukes. Simple. And if they made them then we gave them the lab the scientists and the materials along with an Nuclear Weapons for Dummies.
The impeller wedge is not a "Death Star" or a "Planet Cracker". If so the PRH would have used it on planets not loyal.
But I see that you will keep arguing till you turn blue in the face. Have a great time on here, and have fun debating with others.