Training Standards (Limited to the Honorverse)

Relax wrote:

kzt wrote:Actually, I'm told that big tall guys with bulging muscles have a poor success rate at BUDS. The typical guy who is successful is roughly average size and build, but extremely fit and absolutely will not quit. I know a guy who had a SEAL platoon at a bar in Prescott and the regulars made the mistake of thinking they were a bunch of Embry-Riddle students because they just don't look like what people think a bunch of SEALs look like.

Strength to weight ratio is always key. Especially for endurance. Best endurance athletes in the world are all about 5'10" (Marathon runners)

Knew one guy who failed buds due to stress fractured tibia. Went to demo school instead. So, failing BUDS is not exactly the end for those who fail. Generally they pop back up in other elite military schools.

My last division officer in the USN was an ex-SEAL, he had broken his leg in a training accident. He stood 5ft 7in and weighed 185lbs.

(very) loosely speaking, technology and such freed women from domestic things and allowed them to pull their weight in a modern military.

With the availability of powered armor, which removes the majority of strength requirements for both men and women, the only true strength need is enough to hump your personal level gear (ruck, ammo, rifle, etc) and then enough to hump any squad-level gear.

Comparatively speaking, Honorverse Marines rucksacks are going to be a lot lighter than ours. Skinsuits remove the need for any form of sleeping bag, or personal pup-tents, or hell even changes of clothes. Pulser darts are probably much less weight compared to modern ammunitions so there's even more weight saved, and the rifles are probably about the same weight (excluding the tri-barrels and the 'heavy' munitions that 100% requires powered armor to carry).

With that much weight saved, it wouldn't take very much weight lift for a non-genie woman to be able to minimally drag any male in her platoon. Assuming they live through the pulser hit, which are essentially one-hit-kills even with armor, so anybody that gets hit is probably DRT (no dragging necessary)

Somtaaw wrote:(very) loosely speaking, technology and such freed women from domestic things and allowed them to pull their weight in a modern military.

With the availability of powered armor, which removes the majority of strength requirements for both men and women, the only true strength need is enough to hump your personal level gear (ruck, ammo, rifle, etc) and then enough to hump any squad-level gear.

Comparatively speaking, Honorverse Marines rucksacks are going to be a lot lighter than ours. Skinsuits remove the need for any form of sleeping bag, or personal pup-tents, or hell even changes of clothes. Pulser darts are probably much less weight compared to modern ammunitions so there's even more weight saved, and the rifles are probably about the same weight (excluding the tri-barrels and the 'heavy' munitions that 100% requires powered armor to carry).

With that much weight saved, it wouldn't take very much weight lift for a non-genie woman to be able to minimally drag any male in her platoon. Assuming they live through the pulser hit, which are essentially one-hit-kills even with armor, so anybody that gets hit is probably DRT (no dragging necessary)

Whatever the pulser darts weigh they seem to fight so quickly that I bet the overall ammo weight is up; just because of the numbers they need to carry.

OTOH a lot of the electronics nows seem to be 'baked in', radio, positioning, fire control, probably night vision, is all part of the skinsuit. That's a lot of at least volume, and spare batteries, that seem to have gone away.

Jonathan_S wrote:Whatever the pulser darts weigh they seem to fight so quickly that I bet the overall ammo weight is up; just because of the numbers they need to carry.

OTOH a lot of the electronics nows seem to be 'baked in', radio, positioning, fire control, probably night vision, is all part of the skinsuit. That's a lot of at least volume, and spare batteries, that seem to have gone away.

Well we know the flechette rifles are firing their blades that are barely 1cm in length, according to In Enemy Hands during the Tepes breakout. Using the scale of the weapon images in House of Steel, the standard magazine appears to be only slightly larger than the standard M16 (or C7s as we call them in Canada), so currently about 18cm in length. The pulse rifle variants could be about 20cm long and is a nice round number that they seem to like. 20 cm long, and the blades are razer thing, so they could probably pack upwards of 200 flechettes into each magazine. Usage varying depending on whether it's narrow cone, or wide spread. LaFollet used at least a couple magazines during the 'final sprint' to get Honor to the turbolift to get her off Tepes and that was less than 200m run tops.

Usage of plastic would keep the weight of the magazines down, the darts dont really need to have significant weight/mass either so the standard pulser darts likely fit upwards of 100, I'd have to reread On Basilisk Station for the stilty fight. We got a good look at ammo usage there by then-Captain Ramirez. And checking the fight on Refuge with Abigail Hearns, when she did the fighting retreats. They were able to do in-contact, fighting retreats, repeatedly for a few hours until Oversteegen got back. And I think in-contact fighting retreats consume more ammo than a standard firefight where both parties are in a standoff, due to the need to provide cover fire, etc.

Don't forget how advanced modern medicine is in the Honorverse. I'll bet the juicing drugs are really good, which would get the women above the minimums for men. Of course the men could take them too, but it would still lift the average woman's strength up. Especially, if the drugs for women are better for reasons.

Somtaaw wrote:Comparatively speaking, Honorverse Marines rucksacks are going to be a lot lighter than ours.

I would just like to say that there is absolutely no historical evidence of this. If you look at loadout mass, it has always increased as technology progresses, until there is a combat paradigm shift. Then it drops back down, and starts working its way up again. It doesn't appear to me that there has been a paradigm shift in infantry fighting in the Honorverse in about 2000 years.

A rather small percentage of marines have power armor.. Skin suits have some assistance with the weight, but you still have mass and momentum to deal with.

crewdude48 wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Comparatively speaking, Honorverse Marines rucksacks are going to be a lot lighter than ours.

I would just like to say that there is absolutely no historical evidence of this. If you look at loadout mass, it has always increased as technology progresses, until there is a combat paradigm shift. Then it drops back down, and starts working its way up again. It doesn't appear to me that there has been a paradigm shift in infantry fighting in the Honorverse in about 2000 years.

Skinsuit or powered armor takes the place of clothing, sleeping bags, and tents. That alone cuts off a lot of the weight that troops, historically speaking, carry. It also takes the place of C3I gear, removing the need for spare batteries, etc. The only need troops have (for Marines anyways) is lots and lots of ammo.

We have absolutely no data on what the Manticoran or Havenite Army units bring, but we've seen Manticoran Marines in action at least five times now in the books:
-HMS Fearless Marines on Basilisk, fighting the Stilties.
-HMS Fearless marines, assaulting Blackbird Base
-HMS Fearless Marines, taking out the Sphinx hunting chalet where Summervale was hiding
-HMS Gauntlet Marines on Refuge, fighting the 'pirates', under the command of Abigail Hearns.
-And can't recall the ship, but it was Abigail Hearns on the space station, recovering the Manticoran nationals who were confined by the OFS Sector Governor, as lashback for Laocoon II.


All engagements were high-intensity, short-term actions. But, the hunting chalet especially, which was supposed to simulate raiders, and an HQ company, which could last more than a few hours. None of the Marines packed any snivel gear, at all. And that was with a Gryphon blizzard and the text said

even a Gryphon blizzard would do little more than inconvienence a skinsuited Marine

It's been stated somewhere what the operating duration of the ski suits is, and it isn't that long. Power armor in particular has a fairly short duration (as in hours). If someone does a Guadalcanal on a RMMC unit they are totally screwed.

kzt wrote:It's been stated somewhere what the operating duration of the ski suits is, and it isn't that long. Power armor in particular has a fairly short duration (as in hours). If someone does a Guadalcanal on a RMMC unit they are totally screwed.

Here is the battle armor endurance levels from OBS.

"In the recon role, weaponry is cut back to a bare minimum in favor of additional sensor systems, which simultaneously allows us to add additional cells, reduce overall power requirements, and substantially upgrade sensor capability. A Marine in standard armor configuration has an endurance of less than four hours under sustained combat conditions; in recon configuration, his endurance is over fifty hours, he can sustain speeds of sixty kilometers per hour even through rough terrain, and he can 'see' much better. The trade off is that his offensive power is little greater than that of a Marine in standard battle dress."

In the attack on the terrorist Freedom Base in Shadow of Saganami, the marine commander mentions reloads of the powered armor that was configured in the heavy assault configuration to continue the fight if needed. Just like you would take a vehicle back for fuel and ammo in a protracted armor fight, you can do the same in powered armor.

Edit: Found the part about backup power units.

"Her first objective will be to secure or destroy this structure here." He indicated the stubby, camouflaged tower on top of the hill. "We can't tell whether this tower—it looks like more of a tall bunker, really—is just an observation post, or if it mounts heavy weapons. Since we can't tell for certain, we'll go ahead and be sure it's neutralized, just to be on the safe side.
"While one of First Squad's fire teams takes care of that, her second squad will set up over here, covering the one apparent vehicle ramp we've identified. They'll be dropping in heavy-assault configuration, with maximum firepower and minimum endurance. Hopefully, the entire operation will be over very quickly, but we're bringing in backup power units for their armor and weapons in the event that it turns into some kind of siege operation and they have to stay on site for more than a couple of hours. With the plasma cannon, heavy tribarrels, and grenade launchers they'll be bringing in, I don't think anything's likely to get out of the ramp and away from us.