Who among the Go4 will be the one to get killed first?

Expert snuggler wrote:From a dramatic point of view, Duchairn has continuing character growth going on and unresolved plot points pending. That wouldn't stop GRRM of course, but our host doesn't seem to roll that way.

I agree with this, and my money would be on Duchairn being the last one standing of the Go4, and the one to negotiate the uneasy peace it looks like we'll have in the next book.

From a story arc perspective, we've got to have a jump. The 'Return' is too far out... the Mad Wizard would have to write another 20 books at the current pace of one per character year, and that's not going to happen. That means some sort of peace. It's pretty unreasonable (IMHO) to think Our Heroes could march on the Temple in the next book, even if they wanted to.

Harchong is the destabilizer here. My guess is that a powerful, huge, well-equipped Harchongese serf army takes the field, then gets pushed too far by it's Noble leaders and mutinies, toppling the Harchong Empire but remaining neutral between the Charisian Schismatics and the Orthodoxy. Magwair and Traynair look like collateral damage here, and my hope (fantasy, but it would be neat) is that Duchairn is the one that offs Clyntahn.

It depends on the kind of drama the author wants, and every choice leads to fascinating drama, of a different kind in each case.

If Clyntahn goes to his eternal, ah, reward, the survivors may find a way to let go of the tiger's tail and negotiate a peace. This will put a spotlight on the latent conflict between Merlin and the Empire. A safe peace and a reformed Church would satisfy Cayleb and Sharleyan, but Merlin has sworn to destroy the Church altogether.

If Duchairn dies then Trynair may not be able or willing to put any brakes on Clyntahn. Then we have the drama of a Church spinning further out of control, descending from Stalin to Vlad the Impaler, made desperate by bankruptcy.

If Trynair dies, there will be an open rupture between Duchairn and Clyntahn.

Maigwair might be expendable. But if his military leadership is important, then without him there could be the drama of Clyntahn purging each new commander with each new military reverse.

Expert snuggler wrote:It depends on the kind of drama the author wants, and every choice leads to fascinating drama, of a different kind in each case.

If Clyntahn goes to his eternal, ah, reward, the survivors may find a way to let go of the tiger's tail and negotiate a peace. This will put a spotlight on the latent conflict between Merlin and the Empire. A safe peace and a reformed Church would satisfy Cayleb and Sharleyan, but Merlin has sworn to destroy the Church altogether.

If Duchairn dies then Trynair may not be able or willing to put any brakes on Clyntahn. Then we have the drama of a Church spinning further out of control, descending from Stalin to Vlad the Impaler, made desperate by bankruptcy.

If Trynair dies, there will be an open rupture between Duchairn and Clyntahn.

Maigwair might be expendable. But if his military leadership is important, then without him there could be the drama of Clyntahn purging each new commander with each new military reverse.

I don't see a negotiated peace. Cayleb has already commented about the day when the transports land the troops in Port Harbor escorted by the Haarahlds. This doesn't even take into account the Protector. After everything that's happened, The good citizens of Zion will be fortunate if the Sidarmarkans don't march into the city playing The Pikes of Kolstyr.

Don

I can't imagine a _lasting_ negotiated peace.

Expert snuggler wrote:I can't imagine a _lasting_ negotiated peace.

One of my favorite pieces of whimsy is Duchairn stepping outside of a surrounded Temple with a white flag in one hand and Clyntahn's head on a platter in the other...

Don

n7axw wrote:

Expert snuggler wrote:I can't imagine a _lasting_ negotiated peace.

One of my favorite pieces of whimsy is Duchairn stepping outside of a surrounded Temple with a white flag in one hand and Clyntahn's head on a platter in the other...

Don

AND ... if that were to come to pass, would anyone care to bet on the hand wielding the sword? My vote would be for the 'Oh So Faithful' (and OBVIOUS) Major Phandys! Wouldn't that put a lovely FINAL expression on Clyntahn's face as he realizes that his control wasn't quite so total as he imagined, and a great thing for him to take to his eternal 'reward'.

n7axw wrote:

Expert snuggler wrote:I can't imagine a _lasting_ negotiated peace.

One of my favorite pieces of whimsy is Duchairn stepping outside of a surrounded Temple with a white flag in one hand and Clyntahn's head on a platter in the other...

Don

Clyntahn already being dead would probably piss the allies off. I am sure they are looking forward to his trial, to be followed by a messy public execution.

Expert snuggler wrote:I can't imagine a _lasting_ negotiated peace.

The textev has already stated (in Wylsynn's thoughts just before he dies) that the wars that follow this one will be much worse, since they'll be fought between the additional schisms the CoGA splits into.

So it doesn't really matter in the interest of obtaining lasting peace whether the Temple and the allies reach an agreement. If they sign a treaty, the TLs and fanatics who feel the Temple sold them out will be gunning for blood and forming their own schisms, some more stringent than the CoGA before Merlin arrived, and some with all the exceptions to the Proscriptions so they can build and use all the new weapons. That will further spur creativity, which won't exactly hurt Merlin's feelings, although he'll agonize over the resulting deaths since those schisms will be at each other's throats and he still continues to blame himself for the entire war.

The allies can simply work to create peace at home and prepare to spring the Great Reveal, (How I have no idea!) and to prepare for the return of the Archangels. Access to the Temple on a permanent basis will be a mandatory part of any peace treaty, so they ought to be able to figure out what's in the basement before it wakes up. Maybe they'll even be able to turn off the OBS!

Isilith wrote:Clyntahn already being dead would probably piss the allies off. I am sure they are looking forward to his trial, to be followed by a messy public execution.

Nah, a 'messy public execution' isn't the style for Charis. Remember their treatment of the convicted Inquisitors of the Ferayd Massacre, it was a PROMPT public hanging by the numbers.

HOWEVER, for the Supreme Inquisitor, should he survive to become a prisoner of Charis, I would propose a period of public penance, in the Square of the Martyrs, an open bar jail where his supporters can pass him food (would there be any and would he dare eat it?) while his opponents could describe to him his sins and offenses. To have to sit and take without being able to punish in return would be highly satisfying to watch.

Charybdis wrote:

Isilith wrote:Clyntahn already being dead would probably piss the allies off. I am sure they are looking forward to his trial, to be followed by a messy public execution.

Nah, a 'messy public execution' isn't the style for Charis. Remember their treatment of the convicted Inquisitors of the Ferayd Massacre, it was a PROMPT public hanging by the numbers.

HOWEVER, for the Supreme Inquisitor, should he survive to become a prisoner of Charis, I would propose a period of public penance, in the Square of the Martyrs, an open bar jail where his supporters can pass him food (would there be any and would he dare eat it?) while his opponents could describe to him his sins and offenses. To have to sit and take without being able to punish in return would be highly satisfying to watch.

It will be fascinating to see if Clyntahn survives long enough to be held publically accountable.

Don