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Thoughts on Diesel Fuel

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Thoughts on Diesel Fuel
Post by TheOneLogician   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:47 am

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In an earlier thread, a mention was made of diesel fuel as a viable option for fuel. Some thoughts on this specifically:

1) Good-bye steam engines. Massively improved engine efficiency means that railroads are about to become much more popular. The one disadvantage to this is that THAT particular secret won't stay in Charis for long at all, which means Harchong may get it. Oh well.

2) AFV's may be a thing, with light armor but with diesel engines. Tanks will be impractical in hilly Siddermark, but come Temple Lands time.... maybe. Obviously, if diesel does show up, Charisian logistics and fighting ability will increase significantly.

3) Airplanes maybe? As long as you don't electrically fire it, you may be able to do something with it. Provided, of course, yonder OBD doesn't like it for some reason, but given that it seems to be fine with railroads, hard to imagine it would kill an airplane.

Thoughts?
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Re: Thoughts on Diesel Fuel
Post by Tonto Silerheels   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:38 am

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TheOneLogician wrote:

Thoughts?

I think steam engines violate the proscriptions. It isn't one of the three allowable technologies of wind, water, and muscle. Charis was only able to get an Attestation for it with the active conspiracy of intendant Paityr Wylsyn. Wylsyn likened it to a combination of pressure cooking and wind.

I don't think that's going to work with diesel engines. I don't think it's going to be long between Safehold's use of diesel engines and it's use of electricity.

~Tonto
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Re: Thoughts on Diesel Fuel
Post by evilauthor   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:56 am

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Tonto Silerheels wrote:TheOneLogician wrote:

Thoughts?

I think steam engines violate the proscriptions. It isn't one of the three allowable technologies of wind, water, and muscle. Charis was only able to get an Attestation for it with the active conspiracy of intendant Paityr Wylsyn. Wylsyn likened it to a combination of pressure cooking and wind.

I don't think that's going to work with diesel engines. I don't think it's going to be long between Safehold's use of diesel engines and it's use of electricity.

~Tonto


Oh please. GUNS violate the Proscriptions. Or at least the INTENT of the Proscriptions. Yet people still use guns because they've become accepted as not violating the Proscriptions. The same process of acceptance is happening with steam engines.

So what's a steam engine really? You're burning stuff to make steam (aka "wind") which is then used to do mechanical work.

What's diesel? The same thing, except you're eliminating the steam middle man. I can easily see diesel being accepted by Safehold (or at least the Progressive portion of Safehold) on that basis alone.
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Re: Thoughts on Diesel Fuel
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:05 am

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TheOneLogician wrote:1) Good-bye steam engines. Massively improved engine efficiency means that railroads are about to become much more popular.


Diesel only locomotives were never efficient or successful. It wasn't until Diesel-Electric locomotives were perfected that "Diesels" displaced Steam locomotives. Safehold isn't getting "Diesel" locomotives displacing Steam locomotives until the OBS is neutralized and the Proscriptions are overturned.

OTOH, with liquid hydrocarbon fuels, things like Steam Lorries and Steam Airplanes are possible -- and until the Proscriptions are overturned, practical.

(Search Youtube for "Steam Lorries" and "Steam Airplane" for examples and a history lesson or two.)
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Re: Thoughts on Diesel Fuel
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:02 pm

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Gunpowder, steam and diesel all all violate the proscriptions. That means that instead of starting out with the proscriptions and honoring the intent, you are starting out with the desired conclusion and rationalizing your way around the intent to justify the conclusion.

I really don't think that diesel would be a whole lot more difficult to rationize than steam. The politics of both are in all liklihood going to be difficult for the near term.

I agree that there is no technical reason why Safehold couldn't have diesel right now.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Thoughts on Diesel Fuel
Post by MTO   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:08 pm

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I honestly think that they should try to skip reciprocating engines. Turbines are smaller and lighter for the same power, and conceptually much simpler. They already have wind and water turbines, and the forges are using compressors. Steam turbines are a good stepping stone, and it'll be simple to move to "alternative fuels" should need arise.


I agree about no diesel trains: AFAIK, we've never really succeeded in making a transmission that works well for diesel trains. Modern locomotives had direct electric drive, and the diesel engines run as generators to charge a pile of lead-acid batteries.
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Re: Thoughts on Diesel Fuel
Post by Castenea   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:41 pm

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MTO wrote:I agree about no diesel trains: AFAIK, we've never really succeeded in making a transmission that works well for diesel trains. Modern locomotives had direct electric drive, and the diesel engines run as generators to charge a pile of lead-acid batteries.

I think you are slightly off, the problem was never the transmission beyond it being one more complex piece on the locomotive to break. The problem was that in 1930 there was no clutch material that would have a usefull service life in that application and the number of redirects needed in the drive shaft (think differentials). Useing a shafted drive would limit a diesel locomotive to one drive axle if you used a car style central drive shaft, thus limiting the tractive power of the locomotive.
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Re: Thoughts on Diesel Fuel
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:56 pm

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Diesel airplanes have been built but I've never read about steam-powered ones.

A big advantage of diesel is that you don't really need a petroleum industry to fuel your engines. Safehold grows plants that produce vegetable oil.
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Re: Thoughts on Diesel Fuel
Post by MTO   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:43 pm

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Expert snuggler wrote:Diesel airplanes have been built but I've never read about steam-powered ones.


Dr. Richard Feynman holds the patent on the nuclear heated steam turbine plane. I doubt even a prototype has been built, but the idea has been out there for 70+ years.

A big advantage of diesel is that you don't really need a petroleum industry to fuel your engines. Safehold grows plants that produce vegetable oil.


It might not be that easy. In warmer climes, vegetable oil is an awesome diesel alternative. But further north, it congeals in cold weather. Canadians who convert their cars actually install a second tank which is heated by the engine exhaust. So basically, you start the car on diesel, and when it's warmed up, you switch to vegetable oil, and when you get near your destination, you need to switch back to diesel with enough time to run all the vegetable oil out of the engine, lest it gum up your injectors or something.
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Re: Thoughts on Diesel Fuel
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:49 pm

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Expert snuggler wrote:Diesel airplanes have been built but I've never read about steam-powered ones.


You just haven't read (or watched) the right web pages. :o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw6NFmcnW-8

(that's just the first hit on "Steam Airplane".)
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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