the Destroyer future - a new take, with fission!

crewdude48 wrote:Basically, the rule is that on anything larger than an LAC, the multiple fission plants and massive capacitors required would wind up being bigger and more expensive than the fusion plants, bunkerage, and some capacitors setup currently in use.

A laser fusion reactor is great for small crafts, but won't scale up well to power anything larger than a pinnacle. And the gravity pinch fusion reactor can not be scaled down any further than the one currently installed on CLs and DDs, and even a single one of these produces way to much power and consumes way to much fuel for something the size of an LAC. This gap in power creation effectiveness is the reason fission plants make sense on LACs.

And with DDs and CLs scaling up in size, bigship fusion plants becomes MORE preferable, not less.

I've actually thought about this for some time, and wondered if there's not something to what would effectively be a "dual powered" system for cruising endurance, though I'd effectively limit the usage to the kind of single-purpose ship the RMN tends to hate: an armed scout/explorer -- essentially not much more than a dispatch boat/explorer with claws.

Thought being: you'd probably want an RMN fusion reactor a small amount of the time [entering hyper, etc], but in a grav-wave, a fission pile might be enough to run the craft, or push it around a destination system without burning "reactor mass".

Maybe the thing has a couple of Mark-16 pods on permanent side racks, etc., stern or bow wall with a single spinal graser, etc. just in case. Thing would never be designed for a stand-up fight, but push comes to shove though, [or an unexpected anti-piracy / slaver engagement] you light up the fusion reactor and turn on the claws or after jets (get out quick).

[my own HAHA... call it a Treecat Class FF...]


Thoughts?

SharkHunter wrote:I've actually thought about this for some time, and wondered if there's not something to what would effectively be a "dual powered" system for cruising endurance, though I'd effectively limit the usage to the kind of single-purpose ship the RMN tends to hate: an armed scout/explorer -- essentially not much more than a dispatch boat/explorer with claws.

Thought being: you'd probably want an RMN fusion reactor a small amount of the time [entering hyper, etc], but in a grav-wave, a fission pile might be enough to run the craft, or push it around a destination system without burning "reactor mass".

Maybe the thing has a couple of Mark-16 pods on permanent side racks, etc., stern or bow wall with a single spinal graser, etc. just in case. Thing would never be designed for a stand-up fight, but push comes to shove though, [or an unexpected anti-piracy / slaver engagement] you light up the fusion reactor and turn on the claws or after jets (get out quick).

[my own HAHA... call it a Treecat Class FF...]


Thoughts?

Two plants for something tiny seems highly inappropriate. If it could be a combined plant that made double-use of some/many components, that may help - I have no idea if that's an engineering plausibility though.

Mark-16 pods on permanent racks would be blocking whatever permanently. Maybe the idea could be dorsal/ventral box launchers, with the sensors that would demand that surface out on the outside of the launcher. It's not something to jettison - it's just unprotected by the main hull (which is unarmored anyway!) and not suited to reloading outside a tender.

With squat for recon drone capacity or control or maintenance capability, it's going to be a terrible scout. With squat for supplies, it's going to be a terrible explorer.

Torch may have some use for it - as a frigate, still not with a double plant arrangement - for poking Manpower, but that's all.

If you can't fight, really, don't try - concentrate on running, not being something that's going to be attacked, and/or being a small investment in lives and treasure.

SharkHunter wrote:I've actually thought about this for some time, and wondered if there's not something to what would effectively be a "dual powered" system for cruising endurance, though I'd effectively limit the usage to the kind of single-purpose ship the RMN tends to hate: an armed scout/explorer -- essentially not much more than a dispatch boat/explorer with claws.

Thought being: you'd probably want an RMN fusion reactor a small amount of the time [entering hyper, etc], but in a grav-wave, a fission pile might be enough to run the craft, or push it around a destination system without burning "reactor mass".

Maybe the thing has a couple of Mark-16 pods on permanent side racks, etc., stern or bow wall with a single spinal graser, etc. just in case. Thing would never be designed for a stand-up fight, but push comes to shove though, [or an unexpected anti-piracy / slaver engagement] you light up the fusion reactor and turn on the claws or after jets (get out quick).

[my own HAHA... call it a Treecat Class FF...]


Thoughts?

If fission isn´t enough even for a courier boat, then it definitely wont be enough for a frigate.

It´s just not a good idea.

I'd generically agree, Jeff, except for a specialized mission.

--snipping for brevity--

JeffEngel wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:... single-purpose ship the RMN tends to hate: an armed scout/explorer -- essentially not much more than a dispatch boat/explorer with claws.
(fission and fusion powered)
...
Maybe the thing has a couple of Mark-16 pods on permanent side racks, etc., stern or bow wall with a single spinal graser, etc. just in case. Thing would never be designed for a stand-up fight, but push comes to shove though, [or an unexpected anti-piracy / slaver engagement] you light up the fusion reactor and turn on the claws or after jets (get out quick).
...

Two plants for something tiny seems highly inappropriate. If it could be a combined plant that made double-use of some/many components, that may help - I have no idea if that's an engineering plausibility though.

Mark-16 pods on permanent racks would be blocking whatever...
permanently... Maybe the idea could be dorsal/ventral box launchers, with the sensors that would demand that surface out on the outside of the launcher. It's not something to jettison - it's just unprotected by the main hull (which is unarmored anyway!) and not suited to reloading outside a tender.
...
With squat for recon drone capacity or control or maintenance capability, it's going to be a terrible scout. With squat for supplies, it's going to be a terrible explorer.
...
If you can't fight, really, don't try - concentrate on running, not being something that's going to be attacked, and/or being a small investment in lives and treasure.

We agree, to this extent. Shrike(s), Ferret(s) and Katana(s) would have more stand and fight capacity than a scout craft would. A scout wouldn't be good "drone" tender, not stealthy enough for long duration recon-platforms. The "design" would be have to be heavily optimized and optimized for dual duty use: the fusion plant is a for Warshawski Sail deployment, missile pod-micro-fusion fire up, and as an "afterburner speed" energy source. Trading the extra fusion bunkerage for human supply space instead of reaction jet fuel like a LAC would use.

In essence, you've summarized the mission scope for this little thing, Think "police action" force application at most: If your tiny crew comes across a slaver, you've still got the fighting capacity to do something about it, blow a DD size Verge pirate away, or get off two big (single pod) shots to keep a more powerful pursuer off your butt briefly, then max military power (and equally overpowered inertial compensator) to get the hell away at close to LAC acceleration levels.

Worth it to build? meh. Maybe as a "third generation" Torch style frigate, or lightly armed courier, not anything more.

SharkHunter wrote:I've actually thought about this for some time, and wondered if there's not something to what would effectively be a "dual powered" system for cruising endurance, though I'd effectively limit the usage to the kind of single-purpose ship the RMN tends to hate: an armed scout/explorer -- essentially not much more than a dispatch boat/explorer with claws.

Thought being: you'd probably want an RMN fusion reactor a small amount of the time [entering hyper, etc], but in a grav-wave, a fission pile might be enough to run the craft, or push it around a destination system without burning "reactor mass".

.... you light up the fusion reactor and turn on the claws or after jets

Thoughts?

You don't need an interal power source while in hyper if you're in a grav-wave. You get free power from the sail/grav-wave interaction. The capacitors are used on fusion powered ships to handle entering hyper.

And there are no "after-jets" on a ship using compensators.. You've either got a military grade compensator, and get military-grade accel, or you don't have a military grade compensator, and you get merchant-grade accel. Note that maximum safe acceleration is inversely proportional to the volume enclosed by your wedges, so the smaller your ship, the faster you go. There doesn't seem to be a dramatic difference in energy requirements between maximum military acceleration and cruising, so I can't see how lighting off your fusion plant would make you accelerate more. Once you're at .8c you're going as fast as possible, and extra power isn't going to change the oncoming radiation flux, which is the limiting factor.

Quarthinos wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:I've actually thought about this for some time, and wondered if there's not something to what would effectively be a "dual powered" system for cruising endurance, though I'd effectively limit the usage to the kind of single-purpose ship the RMN tends to hate: an armed scout/explorer -- essentially not much more than a dispatch boat/explorer with claws.

Thought being: you'd probably want an RMN fusion reactor a small amount of the time [entering hyper, etc], but in a grav-wave, a fission pile might be enough to run the craft, or push it around a destination system without burning "reactor mass".

.... you light up the fusion reactor and turn on the claws or after jets

Thoughts?

You don't need an interal power source while in hyper if you're in a grav-wave. You get free power from the sail/grav-wave interaction. The capacitors are used on fusion powered ships to handle entering hyper.

Also, if you are powerfully motivated to build a frigate to fight briefly with fingers crossed, those same capacitors could be put to use (maybe made a bit larger) for the energy weapons fire.

I don't mean to encourage the idea, mind you, and it will work especially badly if you're firing while running off to hyper away from danger soon.

Quarthinos wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:I've actually thought about this for some time, and wondered if there's not something to what would effectively be a "dual powered" system for cruising endurance, though I'd effectively limit the usage to the kind of single-purpose ship the RMN tends to hate: an armed scout/explorer -- essentially not much more than a dispatch boat/explorer with claws.

Thought being: you'd probably want an RMN fusion reactor a small amount of the time [entering hyper, etc], but in a grav-wave, a fission pile might be enough to run the craft, or push it around a destination system without burning "reactor mass".

.... you light up the fusion reactor and turn on the claws or after jets

Thoughts?

You don't need an interal power source while in hyper if you're in a grav-wave. You get free power from the sail/grav-wave interaction. The capacitors are used on fusion powered ships to handle entering hyper.

And there are no "after-jets" on a ship using compensators.. You've either got a military grade compensator, and get military-grade accel, or you don't have a military grade compensator, and you get merchant-grade accel. Note that maximum safe acceleration is inversely proportional to the volume enclosed by your wedges, so the smaller your ship, the faster you go. There doesn't seem to be a dramatic difference in energy requirements between maximum military acceleration and cruising, so I can't see how lighting off your fusion plant would make you accelerate more. Once you're at .8c you're going as fast as possible, and extra power isn't going to change the oncoming radiation flux, which is the limiting factor.

Known items. (1) Even back in HotQ the fusion reactors were kept operating while in the grav wave, so some power/bunkarage consumption was taking place -- but I'd think a fission core could manage it at fractional max-speeds in a given hyper band, and (2) what I am referring to as "afterburners" is really my way of saying that "maximum power" from a fission driven power plant isn't nearly enough" to accelerate and/or drive the ship under battle conditions.

Really the bigger issue is that the ship has to get to and outside the hyper limit with sufficient time to dropping back to .3C without getting trapped.

I guess I should have phrased it "fire up the fusion plant" to power the impellers and compensator [or full grab factor in the -sails once in hyper] whenever a significant portion of max military power is required to accelerate out of trouble and pull off an escape. By comparison, the purpose of the fission side would be limited to acting as a station keeping / coasting / maintainance mode, putzing-around range extender.

RMN wise, something like this could act as a stealthy, passive out-system scout to "keep the Mobius or Saltash systems under observation" for longer duration for a minimal mobile force investment, and still be able to hyper out if needed. Would it be better than a few in system LACs with pods and a hidden dispatch boat? No -- but it would take less crew.

SharkHunter wrote:RMN wise, something like this could act as a stealthy, passive out-system scout to "keep the Mobius or Saltash systems under observation" for longer duration for a minimal mobile force investment, and still be able to hyper out if needed. Would it be better than a few in system LACs with pods and a hidden dispatch boat? No -- but it would take less crew.

For that mission profile, I suspect they would do better either with a DD/CL also able to do so much more, or a slightly modified dispatch boat, delivered by or in company with a freighter with a slew of recon platforms.

The slight modifications are to cram in systems to monitor the take from the platforms, with one or more of the platforms near it to serve as some warning to it to hyper out when need be. It just stays out past the hyper limit and takes in the data and leaves if/when it has something to report or is in danger.

Trying to defend itself directly - or even to shoot down dangerous things - will drive up cost too quickly for a capability it's unlikely to have the occasion to use successfully. Before you get much use that way, you may as well go all out and assign your standard small picket warship.

A third possibility, though it won't cover all the same uses quite so well, is to opt for regular tramp freighter runs through the system to check out local conditions and drop a report afterward. It's not sensitive or continuous, but it may pay for itself (and be cheap anyway), and be better able to collect human intelligence with innocuous questions and human interactions.

A fourth is a variation on the system picket - you deliver stealthy, long-endurance platforms, leave, and return for their take now and then. A well-handled freighter may be able to do that, a lot like Oyster Bay's spider drive ship delivery but with harmless recon platforms for mere observation instead. Or one of the warships with a bit more impunity could do it as well or better, although with less of a clandestine mission profile.

SharkHunter wrote: Known items. (1) Even back in HotQ the fusion reactors were kept operating while in the grav wave, so some power/bunkarage consumption was taking place -- but I'd think a fission core could manage it at fractional max-speeds in a given hyper band, and (2) what I am referring to as "afterburners" is really my way of saying that "maximum power" from a fission driven power plant isn't nearly enough" to accelerate and/or drive the ship under battle conditions.

Really the bigger issue is that the ship has to get to and outside the hyper limit with sufficient time to dropping back to .3C without getting trapped.

FYI, while I don't have my books handy I think it was either in the SVW appendix or the MTH essay on the honorverse background info that mentioned that ships could shut down their fusion plants in a grav wave. Military ships usually don't because keeping the reactor at low power means they have more flexibility in an emergency (for example needing to jump hyper bands in response to a threat). And the fuel burn is apparently worth the increased flexibility.

Certainly a second lower power plant could act as a bridging option to provide power after the exit the 'wave and before the fusion plant is fully online. But for a long ranged scout you could get the same range advantage, for even less cost, simply by accepting the flexibility loss of shutting down your fusion reactor while in a wave.
For that matter the equipment necessary to extract new hydrogen fuel from comets or gas giants is probably less bulky than a fission plants. So if you needed really long range exploration you might go that route. You'd obviously have to stop occasionally and find a system to use as after stop though. But honestly if your building a custom ship for this the easiest thing is to make it enough larger that it can carry an extra 18+ months worth of hydrogen for its fusion reactor.