Who among the Go4 will be the one to get killed first?

peke wrote:

Who among the Go4 will be the one to get killed first?

I'm thinking it's Duchairn. He's the only one who opposes Clyntahn, even if it's only mentally. I'm thinking that he'll make a misstep, and that will put him into Clyntahn's "better off dead" camp. Clyntahn will only have to wait for the right circumstances, then. Right circumstances like the humanitarian shipments getting in the way of war matériel so that Clyntahn can blame him for a military loss.

~Tonto

Or he gets the Hektor treatment and is killed covertly to fix the blame on someone else.

My money's on Ducharin. He's the only one who's actively stood up to Clyntahn, Clyntahn holds him in contempt, and Clyntahn fails to appreciate both the importance of finance to his schemes, and how helpful Ducharin actually has been.

If Ducharin gets in the way of anything Clyntahn really wants in the near future, Ducharin will have an accident, or die peacefully in his sleep (from poison)... or be denounced and taken by the Inquisition.

My bet's also that Ducharin will have left some significant financial "bombs" around that will activate if he's dead, severely crippling the CoGA's ability to continue funding the war, so he'll get his revenge post-mortem.

From a dramatic point of view, Duchairn has continuing character growth going on and unresolved plot points pending. That wouldn't stop GRRM of course, but our host doesn't seem to roll that way.

XofDallas wrote:My money's on Ducharin. He's the only one who's actively stood up to Clyntahn, Clyntahn holds him in contempt, and Clyntahn fails to appreciate both the importance of finance to his schemes, and how helpful Ducharin actually has been.

If Ducharin gets in the way of anything Clyntahn really wants in the near future, Ducharin will have an accident, or die peacefully in his sleep (from poison)... or be denounced and taken by the Inquisition.

My bet's also that Ducharin will have left some significant financial "bombs" around that will activate if he's dead, severely crippling the CoGA's ability to continue funding the war, so he'll get his revenge post-mortem.

I don't think Ducharin would leave financial bombs. He still wants the church to win or at least survive. That is more important to him than his own life.

He's just worried that the church is losing it's soul while prosecuting the jihad.

Expert snuggler wrote:From a dramatic point of view, Duchairn has continuing character growth going on and unresolved plot points pending. That wouldn't stop GRRM of course, but our host doesn't seem to roll that way.

The one I think has changed the most is Magwair... He has grown from almost bweing a non-entity to a fairly strong character.

Don

Is it really the Gang of Four (Go4) or Go4+1? Rayno is Clyntahn true right hand and knows as much of where Clyntahn has buried the bodies and hidden the truth as anyone. Given the analog to Clyntahn as Stalin from Soviet history, I can easily see a time where Clyntahn would sacrifice his queen to avoid a shah-mat.

Of course, while this appears to avoid the specifics of this thread, one can also reverse the situation and speculate that under the above conditions, would the obviously very intelligent Rayno decide to be pro-active and do it to Clyntahn before he can do it to him. The old truism of 'uneasy lies the head that wears the crown' is based upon real history and given how badly the war appears to be going, a weak 'king' (Clyntahn) may find his head in peril.

Excellent point. Rayno is definitely smart enough to realize that anyone near Clyntahn is in danger as long as Clyntahn is alive.

Charybdis wrote:Is it really the Gang of Four (Go4) or Go4+1? Rayno is Clyntahn true right hand and knows as much of where Clyntahn has buried the bodies and hidden the truth as anyone. Given the analog to Clyntahn as Stalin from Soviet history, I can easily see a time where Clyntahn would sacrifice his queen to avoid a shah-mat.

Of course, while this appears to avoid the specifics of this thread, one can also reverse the situation and speculate that under the above conditions, would the obviously very intelligent Rayno decide to be pro-active and do it to Clyntahn before he can do it to him. The old truism of 'uneasy lies the head that wears the crown' is based upon real history and given how badly the war appears to be going, a weak 'king' (Clyntahn) may find his head in peril.

Rayno would not have a career without Clyntahn. On the other hand, things may get bad enough that Rayno will calculate that he will not have a life with Clyntahn, and may well have one he can keep with Clyntahn dead.

I don't think the relevant other parties are going to care to let Rayno get away with all he has already if only he commits one more murder, but Rayno may not be able to understand a human commitment to justice.

It's also possible that Clyntahn will be perfectly well able to calculate what Rayno calculates - without the benefit Clyntahn has, with his hotline to God, of knowing that however successful heresy seems, Clyntahn... er, Langhorne, will nevertheless triumph in the end. And knowing Rayno, Clyntahn may see it coming and get him first. He's not an idiot - he's awfully cunning - and I think part of his head knows what Rayno is keeping from the rest of his head, in general terms, and lets him do it just because that other part of his head can be a right pain if it hears from reality's harsh side.

JeffEngel wrote:

Charybdis wrote:Is it really the Gang of Four (Go4) or Go4+1? Rayno is Clyntahn true right hand and knows as much of where Clyntahn has buried the bodies and hidden the truth as anyone. Given the analog to Clyntahn as Stalin from Soviet history, I can easily see a time where Clyntahn would sacrifice his queen to avoid a shah-mat.

Of course, while this appears to avoid the specifics of this thread, one can also reverse the situation and speculate that under the above conditions, would the obviously very intelligent Rayno decide to be pro-active and do it to Clyntahn before he can do it to him. The old truism of 'uneasy lies the head that wears the crown' is based upon real history and given how badly the war appears to be going, a weak 'king' (Clyntahn) may find his head in peril.

Rayno would not have a career without Clyntahn. On the other hand, things may get bad enough that Rayno will calculate that he will not have a life with Clyntahn, and may well have one he can keep with Clyntahn dead.

I don't think the relevant other parties are going to care to let Rayno get away with all he has already if only he commits one more murder, but Rayno may not be able to understand a human commitment to justice.

It's also possible that Clyntahn will be perfectly well able to calculate what Rayno calculates - without the benefit Clyntahn has, with his hotline to God, of knowing that however successful heresy seems, Clyntahn... er, Langhorne, will nevertheless triumph in the end. And knowing Rayno, Clyntahn may see it coming and get him first. He's not an idiot - he's awfully cunning - and I think part of his head knows what Rayno is keeping from the rest of his head, in general terms, and lets him do it just because that other part of his head can be a right pain if it hears from reality's harsh side.

Another possible scenario here is that Rayno has been so closely tied to Clyntahn that he might figure that if Clyntahn gets bumped off, he will be sure to follow. After all, he has made lots of enemies in Clyntahn's service. So he could have a vested interest in keeping Clyntahn alive...

Don