Discrediting the COGA - How?

Expert snuggler wrote:Is there any successful example from Earth history of replacing such a deeply rooted idea?

Even postwar Japan, after a uniquely horrible military defeat and years of occupation, has many clinging to what amount to Imperial ideas and values. Consider Yasukuni, or a Prime Minister revoking apologies for wartime activities.

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:But I too expect several if not most of the CoGA kingdoms to see the advantages of controlling their local version, including its tithes and all property, by regretfully pointing out the now evident corruption in Zion and any treaty or agreement with the heretics as proof not all is right in Zion, so they must sorrowfully [ ] go their own way until the vicarate is fixed, ie meets their standards and agrees with them.

The fun part of the above is that to justify going their own way, the local CoGA will have to play up the temple's corruption, using all of Nynian's data, and OWL's broadsides and pamphlets etc, across their realms, in effect spreading the reformist message to justify their own greed for power and wealth, which ought to disgust the honest and truly religious, not just the devout right wingers.

Another, scarier direction they could take is to claim that Zion has fallen to heresy in treating with Charis, rather than corruption in the Go4 and jihad etc., forcing the loyal, orthodox king sorrowfully to establish a provisional church from here. The archconservatives may be able to reconcile themselves to that, but it will be hard to avoid clashes with Charis, Siddarmark, their allies and even their reluctantly peaceful neighbors at that point. A canny politician may try to spin it as this-worldly co-existence combined with other-worldly expectation of their damnation and resolve to remain spiritually isolated from the heretics. But that's a real tightrope act, and would require strongly rejecting the expectation PeterZ sees in Safehold theology of collective responsibility for staying orthodox.

It will be fun to see which reformation models RFC has chosen when that moment arrives, I agree the Desnarian emperor might be the closest to Henry VIII in grabbing all that wealth, especially if the CoGA subsidy won't arrive any more, or the Elector of Brandenburg who chose a sort of middle of the road theological course that had both sides pandering to him.

So one wonders how much the inquisition will be gunning for him.

It's an option. It's not a weak possibility, but I'd bet it's less likely than a sort of French model: Catholic-on-our-terms, because you really need us. Figure nominal allegiance to Zion but with most of the tithe action going immediately back into Church hands in Desnair and specifically into the Church services that the Emperor and ministers most care about.

It does open up questions about Desnair's direction. I think it is penetrating some brains there that their industry and commerce are too backward for this era. If it's penetrating their brains that their politics and social structure are too, they're going to be stomping on those lines of thought hard. So figure a dawning effort to modernize economically while maintaining or transforming the power of the aristocracy. I would not be optimistic about that in their shoes but it's not strictly hopeless in the medium-term. A Church that can help maintain popular compliance with the aristocracy would be just what they would want - if they can get and keep that.

With national Churches a fact or a threat, whatever state remains "loyal" to Zion and in physical control of it will be able to treat it almost as its own national Church. Think Reformation-era Spain with Italy in little warring states with large foreign backers. The Temple Lands and Border States may easily become that sort of Italy, leaving North Harchong in Spain's role.

Alternatively, if Harchong suffers massive revolutions, the Temple Lands and Border States could be unified into a single large and powerful state, on the model of late 19th century German Empire, under the flag of a new orthodoxy or some sort of "reformed" Church that backs a sort of aggressive nationalism. That won't be a comfortable neighbor for Siddarmark at all, and might start biting off chunks of anarchic Harchong and restoring them to (some variant of) their fathers' religion.

Expert snuggler wrote:What I've read is that well-programmed cult members usually stay that way unless there's a personal betrayal to shake their faith. In other words, not corruption in the Vicarate, but molestation by a local priest.

Expert snuggler wrote:Is there any successful example from Earth history of replacing such a deeply rooted idea?

Expert snuggler wrote:Is there any successful example from Earth history of replacing such a deeply rooted idea?

Even postwar Japan, after a uniquely horrible military defeat and years of occupation, has many clinging to what amount to Imperial ideas and values. Consider Yasukuni, or a Prime Minister revoking apologies for wartime activities.

Louis R wrote:Many. Start with polytheism in western Eurasia, since that's reasonably well documented. Move on to the Great Chain of Being, taking a peek at heliocentrism in passing, and maybe settle in the US South, for the moment: AFAICT, none of those flag-waving yahoos who want to keep niggers in their place still think that chattel slavery is the place.

Expert snuggler wrote:Drama is not enough. There's a reason I picked Japan as an example.