Implenting Case Lacoon I & II after Oyster Bay

Star Knight wrote:Whats the point?
Lets assume that the RMN has 200 Invictus and Medusa Bs. Thats a very conservative estimate.
Both classes carry 2000 missile pods. If we assume that their magazines are full (no reason why it shouldnt be the case) the RMN has at least 400.000 pods or 3.2 million Mk-23.
At Spindle the RMN targeted each Solly SD with 400 Mk-23s without using Apollo and destroyed every single enemy ship they targeted.
Battlefleet has 11.000 of the Wall, most of them less capable then the SDs destroyed at Spindle.

400.000 pods / 350 Mk-23 is 9.000 Solly SDs destroyed.


So, no need for Manticore to replenish missile stocks before they killed every Solly SD in existence.
And for sure no reason to use the Havies.

Dane Dryss wrote:So I understand that Manticore's ability to replenish there missiles and ships. What about Haven guarding the wormholes? I know all about the hate that the Queen has and all but if they are going to be in a Military Alliance against the Sollies then why not use the 300 to 400 SD's that Theisman has?

I do not believe there has been any indication that the Medusa-B class has been put into production. The indications from the start of At All Costs was that the RMN would build large batches of Invictus and Medusa-A classes since there would be no delays in production due to getting a completely new design worked out.

In addition, my impression was that the Invictus class does not carry substantially more missiles than the Medusa-As. At the very least, no mention was made of it having a massively expanded pod core like the Medusa-Bs.

As a consequence of the two above points, I think your estimate for number of pods per ship should be reduced significantly, definitely below 1000 and probably closer to five or six hundred.

Potato wrote:I do not believe there has been any indication that the Medusa-B class has been put into production. The indications from the start of At All Costs was that the RMN would build large batches of Invictus and Medusa-A classes since there would be no delays in production due to getting a completely new design worked out.

Maybe no Medusa Bs, yes.
But why build Medusa As? Its an outdated design.
Invcitus Class is the current generation of podlaying SDs, no reason to go back to the old designs when they have allready build their first Invicti.

Potato wrote:In addition, my impression was that the Invictus class does not carry substantially more missiles than the Medusa-As. At the very least, no mention was made of it having a massively expanded pod core like the Medusa-Bs.

Then what else is there? The Invictus Class has no Broadside Tubes. The Medusa B variant still has them.

They have to carry more Missiles than Medusa As, if not, why build them instead of Medusa As?
More counter missiles when no Navy has podlayers? Makes no sense.

Potato wrote:As a consequence of the two above points, I think your estimate for number of pods per ship should be reduced significantly, definitely below 1000 and probably closer to five or six hundred.

Yeah maybe, but so what. Just look at the numbers.
We might very well argue that the alliance has 400 SD(P) after Oyster Bay. And that 200 Mk-23 with Apollo is enough for a Solly SD.
So if you go with 5000 Missiles / SD(P) = 2 million Mk-23 available
2.000.000 / 200 = 10.000 Solly SDs killed.

Adn that is not even considering lighter units, ammunition ships and tens of thousands system defense pods.
The Alliance can kill the entire SLN before they run out of missiles.

Potato wrote:

Star Knight wrote:Whats the point?
Lets assume that the RMN has 200 Invictus and Medusa Bs. Thats a very conservative estimate.
Both classes carry 2000 missile pods. If we assume that their magazines are full (no reason why it shouldnt be the case) the RMN has at least 400.000 pods or 3.2 million Mk-23.
At Spindle the RMN targeted each Solly SD with 400 Mk-23s without using Apollo and destroyed every single enemy ship they targeted.
Battlefleet has 11.000 of the Wall, most of them less capable then the SDs destroyed at Spindle.

400.000 pods / 350 Mk-23 is 9.000 Solly SDs destroyed.


So, no need for Manticore to replenish missile stocks before they killed every Solly SD in existence.
And for sure no reason to use the Havies.

Dane Dryss wrote:So I understand that Manticore's ability to replenish there missiles and ships. What about Haven guarding the wormholes? I know all about the hate that the Queen has and all but if they are going to be in a Military Alliance against the Sollies then why not use the 300 to 400 SD's that Theisman has?

I do not believe there has been any indication that the Medusa-B class has been put into production. The indications from the start of At All Costs was that the RMN would build large batches of Invictus and Medusa-A classes since there would be no delays in production due to getting a completely new design worked out.

In addition, my impression was that the Invictus class does not carry substantially more missiles than the Medusa-As. At the very least, no mention was made of it having a massively expanded pod core like the Medusa-Bs.

As a consequence of the two above points, I think your estimate for number of pods per ship should be reduced significantly, definitely below 1000 and probably closer to five or six hundred.

-------------

Edit
found something regarding the Invictus armament:

the butt for BuShips, and they aren’t completely happy with the result. One of the differences between the Invictus and the Harrington-B design is that the Harrington-Bs accept a lower standard of protection. They’re probably just a tad less tough than the old DNs, whereas the Invictus-class, with a somewhat smaller designed missile loadout and an even larger hull, is probably actually at least as tough — or even tougher than — the old, pre-pod SDs. You might think of the Harrington-Bs as the Iowa-class and the Invictus as the Montana or Yamato. Of course, they have some good points that weren’t part of the original Invictus design, either, and they are definitely going to have an effect on how future designs evolve.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49

so "somewhat smaller", 1800 missile pods?

Manticore got the entire production run out of the yards, that means 200 SD(P)s.
Witht that we are well over thousand missile pods on average per SD(P).

Star Knight wrote:Whats the point?
Lets assume that the RMN has 200 Invictus and Medusa Bs. Thats a very conservative estimate.
Both classes carry 2000 missile pods. If we assume that their magazines are full (no reason why it shouldnt be the case) the RMN has at least 400.000 pods or 3.2 million Mk-23.
At Spindle the RMN targeted each Solly SD with 400 Mk-23s without using Apollo and destroyed every single enemy ship they targeted.
Battlefleet has 11.000 of the Wall, most of them less capable then the SDs destroyed at Spindle.

400.000 pods / 350 Mk-23 is 9.000 Solly SDs destroyed.


So, no need for Manticore to replenish missile stocks before they killed every Solly SD in existence.
And for sure no reason to use the Havies.

Dane Dryss wrote:So I understand that Manticore's ability to replenish there missiles and ships. What about Haven guarding the wormholes? I know all about the hate that the Queen has and all but if they are going to be in a Military Alliance against the Sollies then why not use the 300 to 400 SD's that Theisman has?

Well yes if every Solly SD came within every Manty missile in the first year of the war. And why rely on just yourself when you have allies that will help you win without draining your stock to nothing? That would be stupid. They also have to think about after the war with the Sollies. What happens when they use all those missiles? They won't have the ability to replenish them. They will be vulnerable. And what is MAN decides that the alliance between Manticore and Haven is not good and gives the Sollies the drive tech?
You can not assume that the current level of tech level Manticore has will last long enough to win the war. Look at how High Ridge thought the MDM would be more then enough for years and years and he was wrong.
A war with the Sollies will not last a year or two. I will be a decade of fighting. And if Manticore uses all their missiles before they get and keep a good resupply stock they are boned.

After a year the Mantis will allready producing new missiles.

Why dont use the Havies for such a crucial undertaking?
Maybe because you stopped shooting the crap out of them?
If for sure wouldnt want to se the RHN in control of Wormhole Junctions when the smoke clears.
You never know if the current goverment has a future.

Why shouldnt you drain your stocks when you can kill your enemy with ease? There is no reason to not blow them out of space yourself. Oh sure, they can save Apollos and use normal MDM instead.
The only reason to save missiles would be for a another war against Haven. But after Oyster Bay Manticore is toast if Haven choses to try again anyway.
So fire away.

I just demonstrated that the RMN has more than enough missiles in the magazines of the SD(P) alone to kill all of the SLN.
There is no reason whatsoever to think that they could acutally run out of missiles.
And they will have missile production up and running with in a tyear.
They wont be vunurable. Who should attack them? They have at least 20.000 Apollo System Defense pods at Manticore.
With that you can crush every solarian fleet the League can send for the next couple of tyears.

What happens if the Sollies get the drive tech?
Nothing for many, many tyears?
It takes time to construct a decent warship around the technology and even more time to build a fleet.
The League will fall within the next couple of tyears if the Mantis seize the Wormhole network.
Nobody in the Leauge will be bulidng or deploying anything for a long time.

The war against the League wont be long enough for anyone to come up with new tech. To be precise, the League will fall after the Mantis conquer the Wormholes Junctions.
Or maybe sooner after word of the desaster called Second Manticore will reach Sol.
I dont think their will much fighting after that at all since i very much doubt that the Battlefleet reserves will be mobilized and deployed in a coordinated fashion.
Nobody there to have a decent war with.

With the League falling the Mantis will be secure for a couple of tyears. Long enough to rebuild their infrastructure.
Then the Mesans will be ready.

Dane Dryss wrote:Well yes if every Solly SD came within every Manty missile in the first year of the war. And why rely on just yourself when you have allies that will help you win without draining your stock to nothing? That would be stupid. They also have to think about after the war with the Sollies. What happens when they use all those missiles? They won't have the ability to replenish them. They will be vulnerable. And what is MAN decides that the alliance between Manticore and Haven is not good and gives the Sollies the drive tech?
You can not assume that the current level of tech level Manticore has will last long enough to win the war. Look at how High Ridge thought the MDM would be more then enough for years and years and he was wrong.
A war with the Sollies will not last a year or two. I will be a decade of fighting. And if Manticore uses all their missiles before they get and keep a good resupply stock they are boned.

Star Knight wrote:After a year the Mantis will allready producing new missiles.

Why dont use the Havies for such a crucial undertaking?
Maybe because you stopped shooting the crap out of them?
If for sure wouldnt want to se the RHN in control of Wormhole Junctions when the smoke clears.
You never know if the current goverment has a future.

Why shouldnt you drain your stocks when you can kill your enemy with ease? There is no reason to not blow them out of space yourself. Oh sure, they can save Apollos and use normal MDM instead.
The only reason to save missiles would be for a another war against Haven. But after Oyster Bay Manticore is toast if Haven choses to try again anyway.
So fire away.

I just demonstrated that the RMN has more than enough missiles in the magazines of the SD(P) alone to kill all of the SLN.
There is no reason whatsoever to think that they could acutally run out of missiles.
And they will have missile production up and running with in a tyear.
They wont be vunurable. Who should attack them? They have at least 20.000 Apollo System Defense pods at Manticore.
With that you can crush every solarian fleet the League can send for the next couple of tyears.

What happens if the Sollies get the drive tech?
Nothing for many, many tyears?
It takes time to construct a decent warship around the technology and even more time to build a fleet.
The League will fall within the next couple of tyears if the Mantis seize the Wormhole network.
Nobody in the Leauge will be bulidng or deploying anything for a long time.

The war against the League wont be long enough for anyone to come up with new tech. To be precise, the League will fall after the Mantis conquer the Wormholes Junctions.
Or maybe sooner after word of the desaster called Second Manticore will reach Sol.
I dont think their will much fighting after that at all since i very much doubt that the Battlefleet reserves will be mobilized and deployed in a coordinated fashion.
Nobody there to have a decent war with.

With the League falling the Mantis will be secure for a couple of tyears. Long enough to rebuild their infrastructure.
Then the Mesans will be ready.

Dane Dryss wrote:Well yes if every Solly SD came within every Manty missile in the first year of the war. And why rely on just yourself when you have allies that will help you win without draining your stock to nothing? That would be stupid. They also have to think about after the war with the Sollies. What happens when they use all those missiles? They won't have the ability to replenish them. They will be vulnerable. And what is MAN decides that the alliance between Manticore and Haven is not good and gives the Sollies the drive tech?
You can not assume that the current level of tech level Manticore has will last long enough to win the war. Look at how High Ridge thought the MDM would be more then enough for years and years and he was wrong.
A war with the Sollies will not last a year or two. I will be a decade of fighting. And if Manticore uses all their missiles before they get and keep a good resupply stock they are boned.

You have said that Manticore has the missiles to kill the Sollies. However once again this is war and not I am going to kill you right now. What happens if the Sollies after the Second Battle of Manticore decide to take out the allies of Manticore. If as you say Manticore goes off with all their missiles to take out the Sollies that will leave all of Manticores allies open. Unless of course you leave units behind to protect them. But then you won't have all the missiles you need.
And once they take the wormholes not only do the Sollies lose the use to trade with them, the Manties loose all the money that came from that trade. Manitcore is rich because of the amount of wormholes it controls. And a lot of the money comes from the Solly trade. So the Sollies would not be the only ones to feel the financial pinch (on top of what the markets will do after OB).
And about the tech being years off? Well it will be years before Manticore can start getting back to production again. And as you say the missiles will come sooner, yes they will. But if you spend all the ammo and don't have the replacements right after you use them and the enemy finds you? Well you get I am sorry but you die kind of thing. That is why when you go to war you don't just bring the ammo in the weapons, you also bring reloads. And since the Manties do not have reloads, what happens when the ammo runs out for ships?
Yes the ship have great missile defense but if the Sollies want to not come into energy range they can just blow the Manties out of the water with full missile magazines and reloads for years.

I'm sorry Star Knight but that has to be the most short sighted plan I've read since Janecek had that Liberal Pinhead working for him.... you know Reggie "I cower in corners" Houseman? Egads man, did you read Beth and Eloise's conversation?

You know that there is a NEW THREAT on the horizon with UNKNOWN capabilities and you want to use up your absolute best weapons on an enemy that can't take on your first gen MDMs? Gimme a break.

You use the Havenite Missiles on them and you keep your fleet on station at home with full Apollo available but unused. Heck , you could even work with the Havenites and use your own control links to control Havenite pods too.

/rant

NUTS

BrightSoul wrote:I'm sorry Star Knight but that has to be the most short sighted plan I've read since Janecek had that Liberal Pinhead working for him.... you know Reggie "I cower in corners" Houseman? Egads man, did you read Beth and Eloise's conversation?

You know that there is a NEW THREAT on the horizon with UNKNOWN capabilities and you want to use up your absolute best weapons on an enemy that can't take on your first gen MDMs? Gimme a break.

You use the Havenite Missiles on them and you keep your fleet on station at home with full Apollo available but unused. Heck , you could even work with the Havenites and use your own control links to control Havenite pods too.

/rant

NUTS

Not to mention that very shortly every Sollie captain is going to be running in the opposite direction as soon as any dumb admiral above them tells them to go up against Manticoran Ships no matter what the situation.

That will save all their ammo right there.

Space battle SLN vrs RMN is like running out onto a soccer field with a knife(SLN) when you know there are several guys on the stadium roof with sniper rifles(RMN) all aimed at you. Ain't no place to hide in all that perfectly mowed short grass. Are you going to enter said arena? Hell NO! You are going to run the other direction. Ok, hand out the Darwin awards posthumously and send the dumb asses in while improving the gene pool.

Darwin RIP awards to:
BYUNG
CRANDLE
FILLARETTA's is filled out but hasn't been filed yet.

Wow, wait a minute. You got it totally wrong.
First, I think nobody will show up for the Manties to shoot at after Case Lacoon and Second Manticore. So no need to use Apollo Missiles on anyone.

I just said that they have enough missiles in their magazines to destroy every solarian warhship without the need to reload. I never said they would actually need to do that.
A brain game against the "ooooh, they are doomed cause they cant build missiles for a tyear" crowd.

Furthermore, please read my posts as a hole.
I wrote somewhere that i would use standard MDMs first and the Havies as well. But not for Case Lacoon. RHN in control of Wormhole Junctions is bad in regards to the time after the war.

But in regards to "the threat". No its not so unknown after Zilwicki showed up at Haven. They will ahve a lot to say about the capabilities of the Mesans.
And remember White Haven. He said that the people who attacked them couldnt have a big navy. They would just show up and demand their surrender.
So strategically that means that the Mantis have a window of opportunity to wipe out the League.
They will do that.
Without havening much fighting going on.

bafoote wrote:I'm sorry Star Knight but that has to be the most short sighted plan I've read since Janecek had that Liberal Pinhead working for him.... you know Reggie "I cower in corners" Houseman? Egads man, did you read Beth and Eloise's conversation?

You know that there is a NEW THREAT on the horizon with UNKNOWN capabilities and you want to use up your absolute best weapons on an enemy that can't take on your first gen MDMs? Gimme a break.

You use the Havenite Missiles on them and you keep your fleet on station at home with full Apollo available but unused. Heck , you could even work with the Havenites and use your own control links to control Havenite pods too.

I said that the Manticoran Alliance has enough missiles in the magazines of their podlayers to kill every Solarian warship. It only starts there.

After Second Manticore the Sollys wont be able do decide anything because their political structure will collaps.
But taking out what Allies? Grayson, the Andermani? Both can beat any Solarian fleet deployed against their Home Systems with ease.
Some backwater system nobody cares about like Zanzibar? Give me a break. The Sollies wont attack a strategically unimportant neobarb star nation somewhere between Manticore und Haven. The Grand Alliance would just send a detachment and kick them out.
So, stretegically thinking, there is no need to protect Manticoran Allies. This is not the Havanite Wars. We are talking about arrogant Sollies and a totally different theatre of operation. Attacking Manticoran Allies will just result in losing ships to no gain.
Manticoran Backyard can be protected by Havanite units, Grayson Home Fleet detachments or old style Manticoran Superdreadnoughts. No need for Manticoran podlayers.

Yes, Case Lacoon will result in the Mantis losing money. Dont blame me, it wasnt my idea. DW came up with it.
And its only the beginning. Case Lacoon will results in an economic collapse of epic scale.
Manticore losing money wont mean shit, cause after the economy of the League has collapsed there wont be any hard currency left to weigh the Manticoran Dollar against.
The overall result will be billions if not trillions dead due to sickness and starvation, wars and crime mankind to an extent hasnt seen for thousands of years, for many solarian worlds it ll mean the end of civilization.
So yeah, the Mantis will lose money and trade. A really shocking outlook in comparison.

The Solly tech is not only years off. They are decades behind when it comes to acutal R&D getting things done. Mantis have no production atm, yes. But they still have their R&D. All of their research teams got away before Oyster Bay, they can restart research tomorrow if they feel like it.
So while they ll have some problems with implementing new stuff for the next couple of tyears, they can research.
The sollies wont have a chance of catching up. They dont have a coordinated R&D effort. They dont have the infrastructure to build new thousands of new warships. Yes, thousands. Cause Weber in his infinite wisdom chose to end the Havanite War then and there. No the League has not only some 400 Manticoran Alliance Wallers against it (most of them with Apollo) but the entire RHN. Hundreds upon Hundreds of addtional Wallers, way better than anything the Sollies can hope to field in a long time.
No matter how you put it, the Sollies are done. The Manticoran Alliance can destroy them without much fighting.
The political structure of the Leauge between Maya and the MA is about to collapse anyway, add Lacoon and Second Manticore to the mix and it will just implode in the next 5 tyears. Maybe even sooner.
I dont see a way for the League to survive as a coherent political structure.
The Sollie wont be able to activate the reserves. For what if Manticore and Haven blow them out of space without sweat? Not even the Solly Admirals are stupid enough to do something like that.
So like it said, nobody there to have a decent war with.

Dane Dryss wrote:You have said that Manticore has the missiles to kill the Sollies. However once again this is war and not I am going to kill you right now. What happens if the Sollies after the Second Battle of Manticore decide to take out the allies of Manticore. If as you say Manticore goes off with all their missiles to take out the Sollies that will leave all of Manticores allies open. Unless of course you leave units behind to protect them. But then you won't have all the missiles you need.
And once they take the wormholes not only do the Sollies lose the use to trade with them, the Manties loose all the money that came from that trade. Manitcore is rich because of the amount of wormholes it controls. And a lot of the money comes from the Solly trade. So the Sollies would not be the only ones to feel the financial pinch (on top of what the markets will do after OB).
And about the tech being years off? Well it will be years before Manticore can start getting back to production again. And as you say the missiles will come sooner, yes they will. But if you spend all the ammo and don't have the replacements right after you use them and the enemy finds you? Well you get I am sorry but you die kind of thing. That is why when you go to war you don't just bring the ammo in the weapons, you also bring reloads. And since the Manties do not have reloads, what happens when the ammo runs out for ships?
Yes the ship have great missile defense but if the Sollies want to not come into energy range they can just blow the Manties out of the water with full missile magazines and reloads for years.

Anyone wishing to argue about missile load out should start by reading Weber's most informative post on the subject.

http://davidweber.net/posts/93-emmedusa-bse.html

HARRINGTON A/MEDUSEA A carried about 500 missile pods but also had broadside missile tubes.

The INVICTUS extended the pod core forward and armored the interior, giving it more offensive missile capacity and making it more survivable. Total pods carried is about 1,000.

HARRINGTON A/MEDUSEA B have the pod storage of an INVICTUS plus retains some broadside armament. Interstingly, Weber doesn't state what that armament is. I can easily envision and SD(P) loaded out with Mk-23 or APOLLO pods but also having broadside launchers that fire the less capable Mk16. Keep in mind that RMN doctrine was to load out the BC(P)s assigned to Eigth Fleet with Mk-16 rather than Mk-23 pods to engage threats other than SD(P)s. Honor ended up having hte BC(P)s augment her salvos with their missiles which resulted in a scenario similar to JUTLAND.

If you want to break up the SL what you do is send a message that Adm Harrington will lead a fleet that will destroy the SLN HQ complex on Earth and any SLN space facilities in three months (give a date and time) and strongly suggest that all noncombatant personnel be moved at least 400 km away on earth and at least 100,000 km away in space.

Then 8th fleet's 30 some ships show up and blithely obliterates anything the SL can throw at it, blows up the SLN complex on the ground (at exactly the given time) and everything belonging to the SLN in orbit and leaves, having taken essentially no damage.