Natural Borders of Charis?

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:[Re annexing northern islands particularly]
I agree whole heartedly. It would be one thing if the folk living in those places asked for the Empire's presense and quite another to force it on them. The EOC needs to guard against being over extended on a long term basis.

For those lands, "sphere of influence" fits just right.

Don

Sphere of Influence is a wonderfully nebulous term. One might say Cayleb's(?) boast that the ICN owns any strip of salt water capable of floating one of its ships defines what is within Charis' sphere of influence. Any body of land that is small enough and distant enough from the mainland to require ocean going ships trade could be said to fall within the influence of the ICN and by extension the EoC.

It could, yes, if the EoC cares to exercise that influence. Keeping ships in an area isn't free, and if it isn't free, it may not be worth it. And there's occupying and keeping the land itself too.

There's a tendency, based on convenience, and all else being equal, for spheres of influence to be spheres, or at least circles on a globe. It's harder and usually worth less to exercise power further away or with some obstacle along the direct path there.

I'm sure there's some Charisian interest in seizing every bit of wet line of communications and the land around it on Safehold, and they're currently better positioned than anyone else to do so, but (sorry, Isilith!) that doesn't mean that the costs of doing so are either affordable or repaid in benefits.

Natural borders - where they're not excuses for simple territorial aggrandizement or revanchism - would lie where you hit natural obstacles to the exercise of full, sovereign power, given current and foreseeable means. Spheres of influence run to wherever you can and care to exercise whatever degree of economic, political, diplomatic, or military power at least comparable to any peer.

Charis' natural borders get defined by coasts and distance, given their relative weakness on land and strength at sea, with distance defined by galleons nowadays. It's not entirely natural - they can make so much more claim to Armageddon Reef than, say, the Raven Lands, because the coast doesn't represent much of a barrier when they have no people trying to defend it or inland of it against them. But that's a natural border that they've no security need to fill, some social reasons not to touch, and little economic impetus to develop.

Spheres of influence are defined even more by resistance. One canny way of extending that sphere of influence is by minimizing reason for someone to resist you. Liberating Silkiah may be relatively easy, and exercising influence in it thereafter something you get easily with common interests. Conquering Silkiah will take a lot more effort, initially and thereafter, and would blow Charis' moral capital away.

JeffEngel wrote:It could, yes, if the EoC cares to exercise that influence. Keeping ships in an area isn't free, and if it isn't free, it may not be worth it. And there's occupying and keeping the land itself too.

There's a tendency, based on convenience, and all else being equal, for spheres of influence to be spheres, or at least circles on a globe. It's harder and usually worth less to exercise power further away or with some obstacle along the direct path there.

I'm sure there's some Charisian interest in seizing every bit of wet line of communications and the land around it on Safehold, and they're currently better positioned than anyone else to do so, but (sorry, Isilith!) that doesn't mean that the costs of doing so are either affordable or repaid in benefits.

Natural borders - where they're not excuses for simple territorial aggrandizement or revanchism - would lie where you hit natural obstacles to the exercise of full, sovereign power, given current and foreseeable means. Spheres of influence run to wherever you can and care to exercise whatever degree of economic, political, diplomatic, or military power at least comparable to any peer.

Charis' natural borders get defined by coasts and distance, given their relative weakness on land and strength at sea, with distance defined by galleons nowadays. It's not entirely natural - they can make so much more claim to Armageddon Reef than, say, the Raven Lands, because the coast doesn't represent much of a barrier when they have no people trying to defend it or inland of it against them. But that's a natural border that they've no security need to fill, some social reasons not to touch, and little economic impetus to develop.

Spheres of influence are defined even more by resistance. One canny way of extending that sphere of influence is by minimizing reason for someone to resist you. Liberating Silkiah may be relatively easy, and exercising influence in it thereafter something you get easily with common interests. Conquering Silkiah will take a lot more effort, initially and thereafter, and would blow Charis' moral capital away.

Total agreement. The idea isn't to assert active control everywhere on the oceans. The idea is to offer the residents of those islands a recourse for when the mainland over extends its welcome. Should Fallos or even Greentree islands petition the ICN to assist in a dispute with the mainland after the jihad, the mainland power need only consider Delfahrahk's experience. Upon such consideration, the EoC's opinion on the matter under dispute would carry substantial weight.

After all, it isn't a matter of over extending naval resources. The ICN must build a fleet to project a presence on all the oceans of Safehold. Since it must do that anyway, creating an acceptable doctrine that establishes the legitimate intervention of the ICN and EoC is a very good idea.

Sphere of influence can also mean payment for service rendered. If the ICN is providing safe haven against overly ambitious mainland regimes, making the seas safe from piracy, then perhaps payment could mean friendly ports for reprovisioning, fair consideration in establishing coaling stations, free markets for goods or at least restraint on tarrifs and perhaps other things that would smooth the way for the EOC such as friendly consideration for basing facilities. None of this would require conquest. All of it could happen through negotiations conducted within the EOC's "sphere of influence."

Don

JeffEngel wrote:

Sounour wrote:...

Both islands are on the other side of the Anvil. That makes then definitely outside of Charis natural sphere.
And remember that until fairly recently galeons were very rare and galleys were the norm. The anvil is definitely not galley friendly and so would be a very natural border for marine expansion.

That was then - this is now. Galleons are the current military standard, with steamers coming along behind. In either case, the Anvil just means a somewhat longer voyage around it or a somewhat more exciting one through it.

With the advent of the railroad from Tellesburg to some convenient port on the west coast over in West Hallow--an obvious development if there ever was one--The Anvil becomes a nonissue.

The sphere of interest for the Empire may be a bit larger and irregular then the discussion would conjure.

The Empire has two poles of spherical interest, Charis and Chisholm.

Chisholm's interest in Raven's Land and the west coast of Trellheim would be much greater then Charis. The Chisholm nobles who's lands do not contain easily exploitable resources could look across the Half-Moon Passage for riches. Or they may simply look next door to advance their fortunes.

It will not take long for Corisande, Zebediah, and Emerald, nobles and business communities emulating Chisholm's nobles.