Superstructures on warships

For one handy visual reference:
http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/G ... -471275896

It's handy reference for this question for the superstructures. It's not the only one available to show it, but it was one I was looking at at the moment, so I snagged it.

The question: Just what is being done by superstructures on Honorverse warships, and why is it they tend to flatten out with more modern or larger vessels?

One possible answer is that their height is limited by impeller wedge geometry and inertial compensator field mechanics - the total keel-to-top height of the ship is limited - and if you get a taller main hull, there's less space left for the superstructure. I suspect that's got something going for it, but it leaves the question about what's the point of it at all around and sets up the next obvious question: Why do smaller/older ships not have more decks/taller hulls to begin with? What changed over time or changes as warships get larger to make smaller ships proportionately flatter? (I've asked that one before but I don't think the answers were quite satisfactory.)

I've got a dark suspicion that it may have been making ships look more wet-naval early on that's been suppressed over time. Wet naval ships have a use for that to get lines of sight with more distant horizons, but that's not a real issue for spacecraft that aren't on globes. If you just want more clearance viewing over the hammerheads, say, you can just use sensors placed on the ends of them.

JeffEngel wrote:For one handy visual reference:
http://maxxqbunine.deviantart.com/art/G ... -471275896

It's handy reference for this question for the superstructures. It's not the only one available to show it, but it was one I was looking at at the moment, so I snagged it.

The question: Just what is being done by superstructures on Honorverse warships, and why is it they tend to flatten out with more modern or larger vessels?

One possible answer is that their height is limited by impeller wedge geometry and inertial compensator field mechanics - the total keel-to-top height of the ship is limited - and if you get a taller main hull, there's less space left for the superstructure. I suspect that's got something going for it, but it leaves the question about what's the point of it at all around and sets up the next obvious question: Why do smaller/older ships not have more decks/taller hulls to begin with? What changed over time or changes as warships get larger to make smaller ships proportionately flatter? (I've asked that one before but I don't think the answers were quite satisfactory.)

I've got a dark suspicion that it may have been making ships look more wet-naval early on that's been suppressed over time. Wet naval ships have a use for that to get lines of sight with more distant horizons, but that's not a real issue for spacecraft that aren't on globes. If you just want more clearance viewing over the hammerheads, say, you can just use sensors placed on the ends of them.

Your dark suspicion is likely to at least a large part of this. And as David worked with Ad Astra and BuNine to fill in details about what actually goes in ships the fairly superfluous superstructure shrunk away.

But there's probably some argument for the compensator geometry vs the height of the decks. If you're left with a bit of extra space (especially if it doesn't run the full length of the 'flat' secton of hull) you night as well stick a little extra space out there. Even if it's not a full height deck you could use it for store, or it's its just a short section you can use it for an observation buble/lounge (extra spot for off-duty crew to get a little private time)


But as the ships grew bigger eventually you go past a step change point and can exactly squeeze in an entire extra full deck into the geometry (with no room left for superstructure) -- and that gives far more benefit than a vestigial superstructure.


But I'd be interested to see others' speculation.

Personally, I doubt that they are actually there. They are never mentioned in the text, and if you look at any early drawings, (including the stuff in the downloads section or even in the banner of http://www.davidweber.net) you will see any superstructure that does exist is tiny and does not extend out beyond the sensors and other stuff on the top of the ship.

I feel that they have been added to both make the ship look like it has a top and a bottom, and so Maxx doesn't have to render double ended dildoes when creating his amazing images.

crewdude48 wrote:Personally, I doubt that they are actually there. They are never mentioned in the text, and if you look at any early drawings, (including the stuff in the downloads section or even in the banner of http://www.davidweber.net) you will see any superstructure that does exist is tiny and does not extend out beyond the sensors and other stuff on the top of the ship.

I feel that they have been added to both make the ship look like it has a top and a bottom, and so Maxx doesn't have to render double ended dildoes when creating his amazing images.

They look like an external bridge which we know does not exist and appears far too big in proportion anyway.

Pretty much for all the above reasons. They are never mentioned in the books because they don't exist in the books. There's no reason for them, and yes, if the ships were made exactly as described in the books, they wouldn't be there, and the ships would be visually boring (unless you have an active, and somewhat lacivious, imagination ).

We needed stuff to put up there for several reasons (in no particular order):

1. A visual cue for dorsal/ventral sufaces (not necessary IRL, but needed for "entertainment")

2. Artistic license here - we needed to break up the outline of the ship. One of the things they pounded into me in art school was that you should break up your outlines, or the art becomes boring.

3. A visual cue that would allow one to determine what era the ship is from. Pre-Havenite war, the superstructure is blocky, and multi-level. 1920-era ships have somewhat sleeker, rounded superstructures, and are generally a single layer. Incidentally, the different layers on early ships also represent different deck levels. So A Star Knight class CA has a two-deck superstructure.

4. A visual cue to differentiate ships of different navies. I have no idea (yet) what they will look like, but the Peep ships' superstructures will look different from the Manties'.

5. A place to hold banquets or other formal get-togethers, that would provide a nice view, and is pretty much expendable if it gets hit.

6. It gives the ship a sense of scale. One sees the windows, and you assume that's a single deck (that would be a safe assumption BTW - most of the ships I've done, the windows are around two meters high), which then gives one an idea of just how big the overall ship is.

7. Inertia. Star Trek and Star Wars made people think bridges should be visible, and on top of the ship. Obviously, the ancient reasons for that - lines of sight - aren't necessary in space, but people are conditioned to think that there *ought* to be something up there. It's a concession to ignorance of realities (were they actually real).

There is nothing up there in the superstructure that is necessary to fight a battle, aside from a few comms and EW arrays/panels. No bridges, no C&C, no comms sections. No manning takes place there during a fight.

MaxxQ wrote:Pretty much for all the above reasons. They are never mentioned in the books because they don't exist in the books. There's no reason for them, and yes, if the ships were made exactly as described in the books, they wouldn't be there, and the ships would be visually boring (unless you have an active, and somewhat lacivious, imagination ).

We needed stuff to put up there for several reasons (in no particular order):

1. A visual cue for dorsal/ventral sufaces (not necessary IRL, but needed for "entertainment")

Thank you!

Snipping and leaving just something to address specifically - Boat bays tend to be just on ventral surfaces, right? I suppose that would offer a sense of dorsal vs. ventral, but viewing ships from below may be odd. And that they don't stick out may not help.

JeffEngel wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:Pretty much for all the above reasons. They are never mentioned in the books because they don't exist in the books. There's no reason for them, and yes, if the ships were made exactly as described in the books, they wouldn't be there, and the ships would be visually boring (unless you have an active, and somewhat lacivious, imagination ).

We needed stuff to put up there for several reasons (in no particular order):

1. A visual cue for dorsal/ventral sufaces (not necessary IRL, but needed for "entertainment")

Thank you!

Snipping and leaving just something to address specifically - Boat bays tend to be just on ventral surfaces, right? I suppose that would offer a sense of dorsal vs. ventral, but viewing ships from below may be odd. And that they don't stick out may not help.

Yeah, boat bays are mostly always on the ventral surface. However, there is textev that indicates that PNS Tepes (Ransom's ship) may have had side bays in addition to the main ventral bays.

As for the oddness of viewing a ship from below, might I point out the opening sequence from Star Wars Ep. IV? But yeah, I see your point, and the sides of the ship would look more interesting with hatches there for docking parasite craft.

Honorverse-wise, it makes sense to put them there, as it's not armored, and is fairly well-protected by the wedge.

MaxxQ wrote:Pretty much for all the above reasons. They are never mentioned in the books because they don't exist in the books. There's no reason for them, and yes, if the ships were made exactly as described in the books, they wouldn't be there, and the ships would be visually boring (unless you have an active, and somewhat lacivious, imagination ).

We needed stuff to put up there for several reasons (in no particular order):

1. A visual cue for dorsal/ventral sufaces (not necessary IRL, but needed for "entertainment")

2. Artistic license here - we needed to break up the outline of the ship. One of the things they pounded into me in art school was that you should break up your outlines, or the art becomes boring.

3. A visual cue that would allow one to determine what era the ship is from. Pre-Havenite war, the superstructure is blocky, and multi-level. 1920-era ships have somewhat sleeker, rounded superstructures, and are generally a single layer. Incidentally, the different layers on early ships also represent different deck levels. So A Star Knight class CA has a two-deck superstructure.

4. A visual cue to differentiate ships of different navies. I have no idea (yet) what they will look like, but the Peep ships' superstructures will look different from the Manties'.

5. A place to hold banquets or other formal get-togethers, that would provide a nice view, and is pretty much expendable if it gets hit.

6. It gives the ship a sense of scale. One sees the windows, and you assume that's a single deck (that would be a safe assumption BTW - most of the ships I've done, the windows are around two meters high), which then gives one an idea of just how big the overall ship is.

7. Inertia. Star Trek and Star Wars made people think bridges should be visible, and on top of the ship. Obviously, the ancient reasons for that - lines of sight - aren't necessary in space, but people are conditioned to think that there *ought* to be something up there. It's a concession to ignorance of realities (were they actually real).

There is nothing up there in the superstructure that is necessary to fight a battle, aside from a few comms and EW arrays/panels. No bridges, no C&C, no comms sections. No manning takes place there during a fight.

I always figured the "superstructure" was more for show. Ya know, enlisted "club", officers's "club", bowling alley, swimming pool, etc.
Just some place where you could go and actually KNOW you were in space.
As opposed to looking at the stars on a TV screen from inside a steel box.

exiledtoIA wrote:
I always figured the "superstructure" was more for show. Ya know, enlisted "club", officers's "club", bowling alley, swimming pool, etc.
Just some place where you could go and actually KNOW you were in space.
As opposed to looking at the stars on a TV screen from inside a steel box.

In SoS, a rarely used boat bay observational blister was mentioned on the ventral side, used for emergency small boat dockings. I would assume that there would be both ventral/dorsal navigational observational blisters with astronomical hardware for backup nav (for use like whe the Harvest Joy exited the wormhole for the first time, or Francis Mueller was lost in the Oort bely.

Theemile wrote:

exiledtoIA wrote:
I always figured the "superstructure" was more for show. Ya know, enlisted "club", officers's "club", bowling alley, swimming pool, etc.
Just some place where you could go and actually KNOW you were in space.
As opposed to looking at the stars on a TV screen from inside a steel box.

In SoS, a rarely used boat bay observational blister was mentioned on the ventral side, used for emergency small boat dockings. I would assume that there would be both ventral/dorsal navigational observational blisters with astronomical hardware for backup nav (for use like whe the Harvest Joy exited the wormhole for the first time, or Francis Mueller was lost in the Oort bely.

Yep, and you can see the boat bay observation blister in the images on my Deviant Art page.