Natural Borders of Charis?

While I can't immediately grab a cite for it, I seem to recall somewhere along the line that Cayleb et alia felt that the accession of Tarot to the Empire brought the Empire to its natural borders. I'm not actually sure I agree - it seems to me that Charis, as a maritime empire, should consider at the very least Hammer Island and the Duchy of Fallos to be within the 'natural borders', and quite likely Raven's Land as well (though I'm cognizant of the political reasons not to push for their accession at this time).

Is it simply that the population levels on Fallos and Hammer (and possibly Raven's Land as well, beyond the politics) say "not worth it"? Or is there another reason for Charis not to be working toward their ultimate accession to the Empire?

FreeTrav wrote:While I can't immediately grab a cite for it, I seem to recall somewhere along the line that Cayleb et alia felt that the accession of Tarot to the Empire brought the Empire to its natural borders. I'm not actually sure I agree - it seems to me that Charis, as a maritime empire, should consider at the very least Hammer Island and the Duchy of Fallos to be within the 'natural borders', and quite likely Raven's Land as well (though I'm cognizant of the political reasons not to push for their accession at this time).

Is it simply that the population levels on Fallos and Hammer (and possibly Raven's Land as well, beyond the politics) say "not worth it"? Or is there another reason for Charis not to be working toward their ultimate accession to the Empire?

I think it was Gray Harbor that thought that, not Cayleb.

That said, I agree about Hammer, Fallows, Ravens Land... I also think Samson's Land, Armageddon Reef & Islands, over to the unnamed archipelago to the east of AR fall within their natural sphere/borders.

Isilith wrote:

FreeTrav wrote:While I can't immediately grab a cite for it, I seem to recall somewhere along the line that Cayleb et alia felt that the accession of Tarot to the Empire brought the Empire to its natural borders. I'm not actually sure I agree - it seems to me that Charis, as a maritime empire, should consider at the very least Hammer Island and the Duchy of Fallos to be within the 'natural borders', and quite likely Raven's Land as well (though I'm cognizant of the political reasons not to push for their accession at this time).

Is it simply that the population levels on Fallos and Hammer (and possibly Raven's Land as well, beyond the politics) say "not worth it"? Or is there another reason for Charis not to be working toward their ultimate accession to the Empire?

I think it was Gray Harbor that thought that, not Cayleb.

That said, I agree about Hammer, Fallows, Ravens Land... I also think Samson's Land, Armageddon Reef & Islands, over to the unnamed archipelago to the east of AR fall within their natural sphere/borders.

I think the Empire would have to look quite unfavorably at any powerful and hostile presence on Hammer Island, Fallos, Raven's Land, and the various southern islands and continent nearby. But with those very low population levels, with the ability to finesse relations with the Duchy of Fallos and Raven's Land at least (to the extent they matter) peacefully, and with no compelling reason to try to assert aggressive control over large amounts of underpopulated land the Navy allows them to control well enough as it is... it should do perfectly well to consider them inside Charis' sphere of influence without being something they're compelled to count as inside natural borders.

JeffEngel wrote:
I think the Empire would have to look quite unfavorably at any powerful and hostile presence on Hammer Island, Fallos, Raven's Land, and the various southern islands and continent nearby. But with those very low population levels, with the ability to finesse relations with the Duchy of Fallos and Raven's Land at least (to the extent they matter) peacefully, and with no compelling reason to try to assert aggressive control over large amounts of underpopulated land the Navy allows them to control well enough as it is... it should do perfectly well to consider them inside Charis' sphere of influence without being something they're compelled to count as inside natural borders.

I agree whole heartedly. It would be one thing if the folk living in those places asked for the Empire's presense and quite another to force it on them. The EOC needs to guard against being over extended on a long term basis.

For those lands, "sphere of influence" fits just right.

Don

The Ahrmahk Doctrine? All islands and land not directly linked to Howard and Haven fall under the influence if the Empire of Charis. If the residents of any such island appeal to the Empire over incursions made by the mainland powers, that mainland power had better have a good navy.

n7axw wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:
I think the Empire would have to look quite unfavorably at any powerful and hostile presence on Hammer Island, Fallos, Raven's Land, and the various southern islands and continent nearby. But with those very low population levels, with the ability to finesse relations with the Duchy of Fallos and Raven's Land at least (to the extent they matter) peacefully, and with no compelling reason to try to assert aggressive control over large amounts of underpopulated land the Navy allows them to control well enough as it is... it should do perfectly well to consider them inside Charis' sphere of influence without being something they're compelled to count as inside natural borders.

I agree whole heartedly. It would be one thing if the folk living in those places asked for the Empire's presense and quite another to force it on them. The EOC needs to guard against being over extended on a long term basis.

For those lands, "sphere of influence" fits just right.

Don

The republic is greatly indebt for what charis did to aid them, so giving them their island could make them even.
I can see them taking the islands of harchong, desnair and dohlar as they are their enemies.
The other islands could be gently brought into the empire via business and investment. Develop them, until most people living on the island are citizens of the empire, and most of their services and infrastructure is imperial.
THe only place i ever consider the empire expanding to on the mainland, would be the land bridge or canal between howard or haven.

SYED wrote:The republic is greatly indebt for what charis did to aid them, so giving them their island could make them even.
I can see them taking the islands of harchong, desnair and dohlar as they are their enemies.
The other islands could be gently brought into the empire via business and investment. Develop them, until most people living on the island are citizens of the empire, and most of their services and infrastructure is imperial.
THe only place i ever consider the empire expanding to on the mainland, would be the land bridge or canal between howard or haven.

Yes, someone who sees it the same way I do.

FreeTrav wrote:While I can't immediately grab a cite for it, I seem to recall somewhere along the line that Cayleb et alia felt that the accession of Tarot to the Empire brought the Empire to its natural borders. I'm not actually sure I agree - it seems to me that Charis, as a maritime empire, should consider at the very least Hammer Island and the Duchy of Fallos to be within the 'natural borders', and quite likely Raven's Land as well (though I'm cognizant of the political reasons not to push for their accession at this time).

Is it simply that the population levels on Fallos and Hammer (and possibly Raven's Land as well, beyond the politics) say "not worth it"? Or is there another reason for Charis not to be working toward their ultimate accession to the Empire?

Both islands are on the other side of the Anvil. That makes then definitely outside of Charis natural sphere.
And remember that until fairly recently galeons were very rare and galleys were the norm. The anvil is definitely not galley friendly and so would be a very natural border for marine expansion.

Where we can talk this idea is with Hollis and Grove Island and Jeremiah's and Tyron's Land.

n7axw wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:
I think the Empire would have to look quite unfavorably at any powerful and hostile presence on Hammer Island, Fallos, Raven's Land, and the various southern islands and continent nearby. But with those very low population levels, with the ability to finesse relations with the Duchy of Fallos and Raven's Land at least (to the extent they matter) peacefully, and with no compelling reason to try to assert aggressive control over large amounts of underpopulated land the Navy allows them to control well enough as it is... it should do perfectly well to consider them inside Charis' sphere of influence without being something they're compelled to count as inside natural borders.

I agree whole heartedly. It would be one thing if the folk living in those places asked for the Empire's presense and quite another to force it on them. The EOC needs to guard against being over extended on a long term basis.

For those lands, "sphere of influence" fits just right.

Don

Sphere of Influence is a wonderfully nebulous term. One might say Cayleb's(?) boast that the ICN owns any strip of salt water capable of floating one of its ships defines what is within Charis' sphere of influence. Any body of land that is small enough and distant enough from the mainland to require ocean going ships trade could be said to fall within the influence of the ICN and by extension the EoC.

Sounour wrote:

FreeTrav wrote:While I can't immediately grab a cite for it, I seem to recall somewhere along the line that Cayleb et alia felt that the accession of Tarot to the Empire brought the Empire to its natural borders. I'm not actually sure I agree - it seems to me that Charis, as a maritime empire, should consider at the very least Hammer Island and the Duchy of Fallos to be within the 'natural borders', and quite likely Raven's Land as well (though I'm cognizant of the political reasons not to push for their accession at this time).

Is it simply that the population levels on Fallos and Hammer (and possibly Raven's Land as well, beyond the politics) say "not worth it"? Or is there another reason for Charis not to be working toward their ultimate accession to the Empire?

Both islands are on the other side of the Anvil. That makes then definitely outside of Charis natural sphere.
And remember that until fairly recently galeons were very rare and galleys were the norm. The anvil is definitely not galley friendly and so would be a very natural border for marine expansion.

That was then - this is now. Galleons are the current military standard, with steamers coming along behind. In either case, the Anvil just means a somewhat longer voyage around it or a somewhat more exciting one through it.