Getting to space without violating the Proscriptions

Much has been mentioned about how Safehold will react to the Big Reveal, about how much of the Writ is a lie. What if it is never revealed? What if, instead, Safehold does get bit with the innovation genie, but they still religiously follow the proscription against electricity? Can they still get to space?

In other worlds, what would a safehdian steampunk rocket look like?

Also, I've heard that you can substitute fluidics for electric circuits in many applications, like circuits. What do you think: can the Royal College build fluidic-based computers?

Tararoys wrote:Much has been mentioned about how Safehold will react to the Big Reveal, about how much of the Writ is a lie. What if it is never revealed? What if, instead, Safehold does get bit with the innovation genie, but they still religiously follow the proscription against electricity? Can they still get to space?

In other worlds, what would a safehdian steampunk rocket look like?

Also, I've heard that you can substitute fluidics for electric circuits in many applications, like circuits. What do you think: can the Royal College build fluidic-based computers?

In the 1632 universe, there was some research done on this question. Turns out that with reasonable pressure you can build a fluidic computer about a yard cubed that has the power of a 8080.

No electricty = no liquid oxygen = no space flight.

There is no way to fuel any rocket to even LSO (Low Safehold orbit) without some sort of Electricity in the process.

Gunpowders don't have the energy density, the only way solid fuel booseters get the heat and power they need is by adding powdered aluminium which requires electricity to refine.

Was just watching Nazi megastructures on Discovery and they quoted that Penumunde where they build the V2's needed a power plant burning 200 tons of coal A DAY to generate the electricity to make Three (3) V2's worth of LOX a day.

Silverwall wrote:No electricty = no liquid oxygen = no space flight.

Why? The LOX production didn't use electricity directly. It would be pretty possible to build non-electric LOX plant. It would be much less effective, of course, but it would work.

It is possible, in theory, to build and launch the space rocket (spin-stabilised) without electricity. It would be pretty hard to do, but theoretically it is possible. The main question - what could Charis obtain from that?

Tararoys wrote:In other worlds, what would a safehdian steampunk rocket look like?

Probably like a violation of some Proscription other than that against electricity. There is a reason "The Proscriptions" is a plural term.

I'm not sure a man rated rocket could be built and/or controlled without electricity. An unmanned, gyro-stabilized rocket to LSO would be possible but I can't think of any useful purpose for such a rocket without radio/electronics to communicate with it.

Dilandu wrote:

Silverwall wrote:No electricty = no liquid oxygen = no space flight.

Why? The LOX production didn't use electricity directly. It would be pretty possible to build non-electric LOX plant. It would be much less effective, of course, but it would work.

It is possible, in theory, to build and launch the space rocket (spin-stabilised) without electricity. It would be pretty hard to do, but theoretically it is possible. The main question - what could Charis obtain from that?

How do you make (and store) industrial quantities of LOX without electricity? In the real world they didn't manage to make measurable (few millilitres) quantities of liquid oxygen until 1883.

Most real world LOX is made using 2 methods, Electrolysis which is obviously right out and Fractional distilation which will require electricty to get the temperatures low enough. As to what on safehold would make a good refrigerant given the limits on chemistry in the proscriptions I do not know. Most of the early refrigerants were NASTY. Liquid ammonia was one of the mild ones. This is actually the killer problem, getting cold enough to condense the oxygen, the steam powered refrigeration units in the 1880s using compressed air cannot get cold enough, for that you need more powerful refrigerants.

I also doubt the ability of Pressure swing adsorption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_swing_adsorption to generate meaningful quantities given the limited pneumatic technology available. Again how to run it on an industrial scale without electricity and electrical controlls of valves beggers belief.

Please note that I am focussing on major Industrial scale production because while I am sure a few small samples can be made you will need tens of thousands of litres to make even one rocket capable of low orbit even assuming that owl does all the designing and fabrication of critical components. You also have the fun of compressing and storing the gas without causing it to explode on you (gas cylinder explosion not literal explosion).

Silverwall wrote:
How do you make (and store) industrial quantities of LOX without electricity? In the real world they didn't manage to make measurable (few millilitres) quantities of liquid oxygen until 1883.

Seems logical. Well, what about solid fuel? Japanese was able to launch "Osumi" from the unguided 9,4-ton rocket. Was it possible to produce ammonium-based solid fuel without electricity?

Dilandu wrote:

Silverwall wrote:
How do you make (and store) industrial quantities of LOX without electricity? In the real world they didn't manage to make measurable (few millilitres) quantities of liquid oxygen until 1883.

Seems logical. Well, what about solid fuel? Japanese was able to launch "Osumi" from the unguided 9,4-ton rocket. Was it possible to produce ammonium-based solid fuel without electricity?

What is your proposed synthesis of perchlorate that does not involve electricity?

Dilandu wrote:

Silverwall wrote:No electricty = no liquid oxygen = no space flight.

Why? The LOX production didn't use electricity directly. It would be pretty possible to build non-electric LOX plant. It would be much less effective, of course, but it would work.

It is possible, in theory, to build and launch the space rocket (spin-stabilised) without electricity. It would be pretty hard to do, but theoretically it is possible. The main question - what could Charis obtain from that?

Mmmm... and just *how* are you going to do this?

LOX is *liquid* oxygen. Liquid oxygen requires a temperature of less than -100 C to condense, or extreme pressure - more pressure than regular iron and steel containers are able to hold. Not to mention the special insulation required to keep it liquid. I'm pretty sure at some point in the process a purely mechanical approach isn't going to work - either in making the LOX itself, or making something you *need* to make the LOX. Or both.

Safehold doesn't even have air conditioners. You're not going to be able to use *ice* to do this.

In any case, what would any kind of "simple" rocket do for them? Without complex calculations, I doubt one could even plot an orbit. You probably couldn't loft enough payload to build a space station, and, even if you could, what would be the point?

The real question is what *exactly* do the Proscriptions proscribe? We've never seen the actual text. All we know is that the *allowed* methods involve muscle, wind, and water. We don't know how they detail what *isn't* allowed. If they just say "everything else is taboo"; then there's a lot of "wriggle room"; because one with sufficient imagination can usually come up with a way of tying things back to one of those 3. We've already seen this in the case of the steam engine. It would be interesting to see if the mariners of Safehold use compasses. If so, I think electricity *could* be argued to be within the proscriptions, *unless* it's explicitly prohibited in the Writ, since a spinning piece of lodestone within a coil of copper would generate it. Copper isn't verboten, lodestone may not be either. The steam engine is already attested. *If* one used hollow copper tubes rather than solid or stranded wire to conduct the resultant electricity, one could probably argue that it was just basically some invisible type of "wind". Actually, since electricity is a flow of electrons, that wouldn't be totally untrue, but just not the whole truth.

The fact of the matter is that the Inquisition has always been good at this kind of thing, easily coming up with some way to justify the "inventions" it wants, just as it does denying the ones it doesn't.

jgnfld wrote:

Dilandu wrote:
Seems logical. Well, what about solid fuel? Japanese was able to launch "Osumi" from the unguided 9,4-ton rocket. Was it possible to produce ammonium-based solid fuel without electricity?

What is your proposed synthesis of perchlorate that does not involve electricity?

A better question would be is there a way to generate electricity without knowing what it is?

You can take an orange or other kind of citrus fruit - which Safehold may have growing - and stick a couple of pieces of metal in it creating a battery. Now, I can't see how a piece of fruit impaled by metal implements violates normal usages. Cooks no doubt cut them with knives all the time. If you happened to have copper utensils, you could stumble across this effect. Would anyone even *think* to apply the Proscriptions to that?