Post-Yawata Strike Yeltsin

Since we've actually somewhat discussed what Manticore did post-YS, and the textev says they're now building two space stations on each planet, heavy on anti-missile.


What about Grayson, and their original "yards" plus Blackbird?

Everywhere from Honor of the Queen, Echos, and others, we know Grayson preferred their disbursed yards. A throwback to their pre-Alliance, which was manpower intensive, after they got Manticoran tech they continued to do so.

And they built their first Medusas that way, especially at Blackbird, which I believe we saw a little of the aftermath in one of the World of Honor mini-books. something about a female Grayson who acted as a Yeoman, and had sisters who worked as exotic dancers.


I think they might continue doing semi-dispersed, but go with a blanket station 'core'. Think of it like a starburst, or pentagram sort of design. Five individual, dispersed yards, scattered around a hub, that provides localized defenses. It would still be uniquely Grayson, but still has that 'burnt hand teaches best' that Manticore has.

Thoughts, or other ideas?

Honestly, Grayson has a much bigger and better navy than it needs unless Manticore is being run by idiots and/or that alliance breaks down. While there is clearly some chance of that (High Ridge did happen, after all), I'm not sure how much even Graysons need to hedge for that possibility.

The RMN needs to get its yards rebuilt because it didn't come close to bringing its entire fleet up to Buttercup-level tech before Oyster Bay. The GSN, though, was mostly built in the intra-war era (or at least its wall of battle was). And Manticore is a ~50-system polity these days. Grayson's a single system without a wormhole junction; with Masada a Manticoran protectorate and the Manticore-Haven wars over, they'd be fine with a BC-level navy in the long run. That level of downsizing isn't likely to happen, Graysons being Graysons, but it arguably would make a lot of sense.

[Ed: cleared up some confusing pronouns]

drothgery wrote:Honestly, Grayson has a much bigger and better navy than it needs unless Manticore is being run by idiots and/or that alliance breaks down. While there is clearly some chance of that (High Ridge did happen, after all), I'm not sure how much even Graysons need to hedge for that possibility.

The RMN needs to get its yards rebuilt because it didn't come close to bringing its entire fleet up to Buttercup-level tech before Oyster Bay. The GSN, though, was mostly built in the intra-war era (or at least its wall of battle was). And it's a ~50-system polity these days. Grayson's a single system without a wormhole junction; with Masada a Manticoran protectorate and the Manticore-Haven wars over, they'd be fine with a BC-level navy in the long run. That level of downsizing isn't likely to happen, Graysons being Graysons, but it arguably would make a lot of sense.

It would, though I think Grayson will need to see the Solarian League as no longer a threat either before it can stand down from the outsized fleet.

Alternatively, it could grow into a larger power given the fleet, its good relations with other local minor powers, and a society that takes well both to challenges and hostile environments. I could easily see it establishing a leadership role among the single system states between the Empire and the Republic, based on that fleet, diplomacy, and perhaps dispersed extraction operations among the belts and system bodies in systems not otherwise exploited in the region.

But back to the point immediately at hand - I don't recall anything about Grayson's reconstruction plans. I'm re-reading books in that era, so I may come across something. I do agree that they may well go for dispersed yards in a well-defended zone (or several such), as opposed to hardened conventional yards. It'd also be something for that outsized navy to keep defending.

i think the last mention about it was when Judah Yanakov spoke to Honor about him leaving to take over as Grayson First space lord.

and even then nothing was said beyond "we will rebuild".

Dauntless wrote:i think the last mention about it was when Judah Yanakov spoke to Honor about him leaving to take over as Grayson First space lord.

and even then nothing was said beyond "we will rebuild".

Much to my dismay. As intensely as I love Haven, my heart was Grayson's first, and I've resented - just a bit - the backseat they've taken to the growing Manticore-Haven relationship. Not that I'm objecting to said relationship, mind you - in fact, I'm practically doing cartwheels - but I certainly wouldn't object if, say, the GA's head council decided it needed a change of scenery and headed to Harrington Steading for awhile. (The prospect of getting a bunch of treecats and Eloise Pritchart in the same place in no way influences this desire, of course.) We haven't properly visited the planet since Ashes of Victory, and I want to go back!

Back to the topic at hand, I very much doubt Grayson would ever become a multi-system polity in itself; it's not cosmopolitan enough for that, and I mean that in the nicest possible way. Grayson spent a thousand years isolated from the rest of the universe, and that is quite a bit of time for a national character to cement itself. I don't see that changing. But as the Grand Alliance shifts the political equation in the areas between the Manticore-Haven border, I could easily see it, as Jeff said, becoming the 'big brother' of other single-system polities in the area, and of course as a core member of the Grand Alliance, it will be heavily involved in the heart of that alliance's decision-making. As a result, I don't see a build-down happening anytime soon, particularly for as long as the... unpleasant memories of the Janacek build-down still linger.

"...Grayson spent a thousand years isolated from the rest of the universe, and that is quite a bit of time for a national character to cement itself. I don't see that changing."

Of course things change. The only reason Grayson didn't grow too big was the challenge of toxicity and Masada. As it grows and matures it will naturally expand, surely with space colonization, not just space habitats. What its history guarantees, is that growth will be seen as a test and embraced.

WmLambert wrote:"...Grayson spent a thousand years isolated from the rest of the universe, and that is quite a bit of time for a national character to cement itself. I don't see that changing."

Of course things change. The only reason Grayson didn't grow too big was the challenge of toxicity and Masada. As it grows and matures it will naturally expand, surely with space colonization, not just space habitats. What its history guarantees, is that growth will be seen as a test and embraced.

The region around Grayson is fairly thick with populated worlds though. It's not likely to be a conqueror, and while it may cultivate a lot of ties among its neighbors, it's not going to go all the way to being the nucleus of another interstellar nation in their company. (The Solarian League is another lesson there: it developed too much juice for a mere treaty organization and not nearly enough responsibility for a genuine state. Manticore's already developing the Star Empire with that negative lesson in mind; Grayson isn't likely to miss it either.)

But Grayson has developed resource extraction and orbital industry and farming to an unusual degree, so it's got a chance to spread small enclaves on and over real estate other people aren't using. In combination with good diplomacy and a hearty navy, and under the wings of two mighty friends, that gives it a space to grow into something larger and still unique.

It may also sponsor daughter colonies out the far sides of the Basilisk and Matapan termini. Without control over the Junction, those wouldn't be something that Grayson could practically count as parts of its own state, but distant friends are still friends, and loci for trade, cultural exchange, and escape valves for people at either end who don't quite fit in where they are but would be very welcome citizens at the other end. (Compare Manticore and Beowulf and Allison Harrington.)

JeffEngel wrote:

WmLambert wrote:"...Grayson spent a thousand years isolated from the rest of the universe, and that is quite a bit of time for a national character to cement itself. I don't see that changing."

Of course things change. The only reason Grayson didn't grow too big was the challenge of toxicity and Masada. As it grows and matures it will naturally expand, surely with space colonization, not just space habitats. What its history guarantees, is that growth will be seen as a test and embraced.

The region around Grayson is fairly thick with populated worlds though.

Not really. There's a decently large stretch of planets between Grason and Haven.
Though Honestly, I never understood why the Mantacorian Alliance's members are so small, even compared to Haven's secondary planets.

blackjack217:
Good point. I'm going to try to propose some 'explanations', but it probably just boils down to authorial design in order to produce the most dramatic tension.

1. They may have been founded later than Haven's Daughter colonies
2. They may have had smaller initial founding populations
3. They may have lacked the support that Haven provided the Daughter Colonies
4. (Most Likely) Backwards social and economic policies
5. Reduced fertility due to ????
6. Haven was a beacon for emigration in the early days - maybe a lot (high millions) of people emigrated there.

Jeff Engel:
Considering governments control their star systems out to 6 or 12 light hours as long as they can police it (correct me if I'm wrong) it does not seem realistic to expect them to find any real estate in any settled systems. Now you always could just go there anyway, but it would probably be considered an 'unfriendly act' to do so.

I don't really see the Graysons 'bullying' weaker systems that cannot effectively police their peripheries effectively by 'squatting' in their Kuiper Belts/Outer Planets.

Now they could move in with permission, like Manticore setting up a base in Sidemore, but I'm not sure they have the right motivations to set up military bases in other systems.

If they were to expand it would be exactly one system away: Masada.

Now I would rate the likelihood of Grayson and Masada becoming reunited about the same as North and South Korea getting reunited. It seems to be a historical inevitability, but does not seem realistically possible just now. However in a few decades time attitudes will change and governments will change and those that were lost will be found.

If it weren't for political and security considerations the Grayson-Masada missionary society would be sending over so many people it would probably cause a notable dip in the planetary population.

One last thing: out-system steadings would cause travel problems for both the Steadholders and also the Reverend, who needs to preach there on rotation.

BobfromSydney wrote:Jeff Engel:
Considering governments control their star systems out to 6 or 12 light hours as long as they can police it (correct me if I'm wrong) it does not seem realistic to expect them to find any real estate in any settled systems. Now you always could just go there anyway, but it would probably be considered an 'unfriendly act' to do so.

I don't really see the Graysons 'bullying' weaker systems that cannot effectively police their peripheries effectively by 'squatting' in their Kuiper Belts/Outer Planets.

Now they could move in with permission, like Manticore setting up a base in Sidemore, but I'm not sure they have the right motivations to set up military bases in other systems.

If they were to expand it would be exactly one system away: Masada.

Now I would rate the likelihood of Grayson and Masada becoming reunited about the same as North and South Korea getting reunited. It seems to be a historical inevitability, but does not seem realistically possible just now. However in a few decades time attitudes will change and governments will change and those that were lost will be found.

If it weren't for political and security considerations the Grayson-Masada missionary society would be sending over so many people it would probably cause a notable dip in the planetary population.

One last thing: out-system steadings would cause travel problems for both the Steadholders and also the Reverend, who needs to preach there on rotation.

Yeaaaah. I'm not talking about moving into other people's star systems and claiming every rock without people already on it. I'm talking about development of parts of a foreign system, with their permission, paying them taxes or long-term leases perhaps, where Grayson can and will develop those rocks when the (friendly!!) locals haven't and wouldn't.

With Grayson investment comes Grayson security concerns. There's a natural reason to have Grayson naval units in those systems, coordinating with their friends there, with the permission of those friends, in the mutual defense of their friends' still quite sovereign territory and the Grayson commercial interests there. In return for letting them use - and pay for - some rocks you can't use practically, you're getting free security coverage. If it's not coercive, if it really is just what it says on the tin, this is a great deal for the neighbor and a good enough one for Grayson.

Actual steadings with steadholders and normal participation in Grayson's governments out there would be practically complicated, as you say, and legally implausible in case of settlements in occupied star systems. (That last won't apply to settlements in otherwise unclaimed systems, without a habitable planet to have attracted colonists before, and those places won't have any local deterrent to Grayson or Grayson daughter "colonies" making an outright claim.) If it's only a practical challenge though, it's entirely possible the Grayson Constitution and Father Church can adapt somehow. An out-system steadholder may have a regent representing the steading in the Council of Steadholders, perhaps, while the steadholder remains at home, or vice versa. The Reverend may spend a couple days in hyper and two weeks every two years at an out-system steading, instead of the normal one week yearly for at-home ones. I'm sure other possibilities could crop up; those are just some obvious ones.