The cruiser future in the RMN - another go

Weird Harold wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Minor quibble, there's no tetxtev that anything except Katana's load the Viper anti-LAC (counter-)missile at all. Not even the missile heavy Ferret's seem to carry them.

Actually there is textev that main combatants -- i.e. SDs and presumable any other ship capable of MK31 CMs -- can fire vipers from their CM tubes.

I had a quick search of AAC earlier in an attempt to find confirmation either way. I could not find it - all references implied that only the Katanas were launching the Vipers and were doing so at the same time warships(and other LACs) were spitting out MK31s.

The Viper did use the Mk31 as a starting point. However, it seems to be at least 20% longer, which obviously means it won't fit into the MK31 launcher. There is absolutely no logical reason for the RMN to have made a countermissile launcher 20% longer than they needed it to be, so I'm leaning towards only the Katanas being able to fire Vipers at the moment.

munro: read the after action report from the Havenite perspective given by Thiesman in AAC for the Cutworm II raid I believe. Confirms that the SD's were firing the Vipers as LAC killers. The ships in question were not covered by a bunch of Katana's so the system force sent the LAC's in thinking they could do some damage. Instead they got massacred.

What we do not know is if the lighter combatants have had their magazines changed to accommodate them or if their CM tubes are long enough to accommodate the vipers greater length. Many here on the forum, me included, think it would be really odd if the Invictus, a much OLDER design, than the BCL, SAG-C, and Rolland could fire the longer Viper missile and NOT, the smaller combatants as well. From the age of the Invictus design, one can presume that the BC'P and Avalon/Wolfhound can also fire Vipers.

Relax wrote:munro: read the after action report from the Havenite perspective given by Thiesman in AAC for the Cutworm II raid I believe. Confirms that the SD's were firing the Vipers as LAC killers. The ships in question were not covered by a bunch of Katana's so the system force sent the LAC's in thinking they could do some damage. Instead they got massacred.

What we do not know is if the lighter combatants have had their magazines changed to accommodate them or if their CM tubes are long enough to accommodate the vipers greater length. Many here on the forum, me included, think it would be really odd if the Invictus, a much OLDER design, than the BCL, SAG-C, and Rolland could fire the longer Viper missile and NOT, the smaller combatants as well. From the age of the Invictus design, one can presume that the BC'P and Avalon/Wolfhound can also fire Vipers.

Ah, of course. The Havenites didn't know it was called the Viper, so it didn't show up in the wordsearch. I knew I'd seen a reference somewhere. Thanks.

Well, with that back in consideration, my guess is the particular SD(P)s involved in that raid had been refitted with new CM launchers during the construction process, at the same time they were working the Katana production lines up. Other newest construction might also have them.

munroburton wrote:

Relax wrote:What we do not know is if the lighter combatants have had their magazines changed to accommodate them or if their CM tubes are long enough to accommodate the vipers greater length. Many here on the forum, me included, think it would be really odd if the Invictus, a much OLDER design, than the BCL, SAG-C, and Rolland could fire the longer Viper missile and NOT, the smaller combatants as well. From the age of the Invictus design, one can presume that the BC'P and Avalon/Wolfhound can also fire Vipers.

Ah, of course. The Havenites didn't know it was called the Viper, so it didn't show up in the wordsearch. I knew I'd seen a reference somewhere. Thanks.

Well, with that back in consideration, my guess is the particular SD(P)s involved in that raid had been refitted with new CM launchers during the construction process, at the same time they were working the Katana production lines up. Other newest construction might also have them.

And, for this discussion, it's more to the point that future construction is entirely likely to have suitable launchers for them. The Viper's relative independence for fire control purposes is a big factor, in addition to the anti-LAC, counter-missile swing function.

For that matter, it may also be useful at close enough ranges as something to use against a target's tethered decoys or Keyhole-like drones.

JeffEngel wrote:
For that matter, it may also be useful at close enough ranges as something to use against a target's tethered decoys or Keyhole-like drones.

It is difficult to imagine ships surviving to close to less than SDM ranges in a MDM environment. I'm not saying its impossible, just that it seems to be highly unlikely.

It does bring up a question about the vipers however:
It's a bomb-pumped x-ray laser with only a single lasing rod. How 'strong' is the laser? Will it hurt a CA/CL/DD? Would it hurt a BC? Or is it only useful against unarmoured LACs?

I know the other factor is that the single lasing rod means it only has a single chance to hit.

BobfromSydney wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:
For that matter, it may also be useful at close enough ranges as something to use against a target's tethered decoys or Keyhole-like drones.

It is difficult to imagine ships surviving to close to less than SDM ranges in a MDM environment. I'm not saying its impossible, just that it seems to be highly unlikely.

It does bring up a question about the vipers however:
It's a bomb-pumped x-ray laser with only a single lasing rod. How 'strong' is the laser? Will it hurt a CA/CL/DD? Would it hurt a BC? Or is it only useful against unarmoured LACs?

I know the other factor is that the single lasing rod means it only has a single chance to hit.

The Viper is supposed to have a DD/CL class lasing rod. So it would hurt a DD, but it take a "few" to kill it or do serious harm. With a CA, it would be a "death of a thousand cuts".

munroburton wrote:

Relax wrote:munro: read the after action report from the Havenite perspective given by Thiesman in AAC for the Cutworm II raid I believe. Confirms that the SD's were firing the Vipers as LAC killers. The ships in question were not covered by a bunch of Katana's so the system force sent the LAC's in thinking they could do some damage. Instead they got massacred.

What we do not know is if the lighter combatants have had their magazines changed to accommodate them or if their CM tubes are long enough to accommodate the vipers greater length. Many here on the forum, me included, think it would be really odd if the Invictus, a much OLDER design, than the BCL, SAG-C, and Rolland could fire the longer Viper missile and NOT, the smaller combatants as well. From the age of the Invictus design, one can presume that the BC'P and Avalon/Wolfhound can also fire Vipers.

Ah, of course. The Havenites didn't know it was called the Viper, so it didn't show up in the wordsearch. I knew I'd seen a reference somewhere. Thanks.

Well, with that back in consideration, my guess is the particular SD(P)s involved in that raid had been refitted with new CM launchers during the construction process, at the same time they were working the Katana production lines up. Other newest construction might also have them.

It does raise a different question: How did the RHN LAC's die first without being able to flush their own missiles? A viper, as far as we have currently seen, does not have a 1/2 power setting. No damage for the complete destruction of the entire RHN LAC force indicates that the Viper most certainly does have a 1/2 power setting. Their maximum range is 3.75Mkm under "normal". LAC's missiles range use standard, or near standard SDM's, unless the RHN has gone to micro missiles that even the old Grayson's would recognize in 1900 that is.

they were overconfident and wanted to wait as late as poss to reduce time PD had to work with?

Theemile wrote:
The Viper is supposed to have a DD/CL class lasing rod. So it would hurt a DD, but it take a "few" to kill it or do serious harm. With a CA, it would be a "death of a thousand cuts".

In that case I wouldn't be using Vipers to try and take out the decoys/drones. I would be using them to take out the ship! (If I can spare the CM tubes to do so, that is)

Theemile wrote:

BobfromSydney wrote:It does bring up a question about the vipers however:
It's a bomb-pumped x-ray laser with only a single lasing rod. How 'strong' is the laser? Will it hurt a CA/CL/DD? Would it hurt a BC? Or is it only useful against unarmoured LACs?

I know the other factor is that the single lasing rod means it only has a single chance to hit.

The Viper is supposed to have a DD/CL class lasing rod. So it would hurt a DD, but it take a "few" to kill it or do serious harm. With a CA, it would be a "death of a thousand cuts".

To be more specific, it carries the exact same laserhead as the Mk-13 Anti-Ship Missile carried by early first Havenite war CA/BC class ships, including HMS Fearless (CA-286). This means that it was designed to go against same class ships of that era.

Given current armoring standards and the other updates to modern warships, Theemile is also probably correct that that particular laserhead would now be somewhat useful against DD/CL classes, unless they happen to be older, not really updated CA/BC classes.

I wonder what "modern" navy might have ships that old...?