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It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits

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Re: It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:43 pm

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n7axw wrote:I am not asserting that there is no role for Cayleb in Siddar City. However that being said, his role as Emperor means that his primary responsibility is to the EOC. The role is primarily political as at this time the dynasty is the glue holding the empire together and he should be spending time in Telesberg as well as visiting other parts of the empire to facilitate things meshing together.
Granted - insisted on - that his primary responsibility is to the EoC. That said - where does he have to be to satisfy that responsibility? When he's not alone on the throne, when the Empire needs a monarch to make the calls, Sharleyan suffices inside the EoC. (Possibly better than he does.) Cayleb being in Siddarmark doesn't mean the difference between no resident ruler and one. It just makes the difference between one and two, one and an extra. (Plus opportunities to jack up the heir count from one to one and an extra, if he's in the same place as Sharleyan.)

For roaming around, meshing the Empire together, you've got a stronger point. It's one thing in favor of staying on Tarot for awhile: he'd be in a place that can use that imperial meshing and relatively close to the mainland in case of additional imperial work to be done there. (Or secret seijin work, for Merlin.)

But if he's got more than zero use as emperor in Siddarmark, might that not be enough use to justify remaining there? (Or enough, in addition to it being perhaps convenient for future imperial mainland work and Merlin's cover.) I wouldn't be sure enough to say not. Granted, he does have a lot more to do even in Tellesberg than tea and groping, but symbolically, it would be easy for people to get that impression or have a little doubt that way. And it would be far, far too easy for Cayleb to feel that way, when he's another able-bodied man who, but for accident of birth, would be out on the snow or mud of the Siddarmark battlefields. Siddar City is at least on the same continent as them, and he's at least serving a somewhat more immediate military oversight role there than he would be in Charis or even Tarot.
My comment about Cayleb carousing was intended to be taken tongue in cheek sinse it was in response to the tea in Tellesburg comment as if ruling an empire is a less than full time job, even in peacetime--an assertion which would be nonsense. There is, by the way, textev for me to base my comment in.
Right. There's business to be done in either location and some downtime to be had in either as well. A lot of the immediate imperial work is going to be done so much better inside the empire, but not so much the work that's already being done wherever his co-ruler is. So the comparisons run (1) Siddarmark vs. (2) backing up Sharleyan and maybe help back up Alahnah wherever Sharleyan is vs. (3) being the Emperor inside the Emperor somewhere Sharleyan is not.

I doubt (2) is going to win that priority race, and if (3) comes ahead of (1) at all, I would not put much money on it.
I think that it was a good thing for Cayleb to go to Siddarmark to stand with the Protector in the crisis. But now that the ICA is in place and Siddarmark is making good progress rebuilding its army, the crisis phase of the conflict seems to be largely over.

Maybe, though the bleeding, dying, and killing part has a lot of progress to go, and being far, far away from it will not look or feel good to Cayleb, the troops, or the people sending sons and treasure to the mainland.

And with all that killing, there are other crises ahead. With the camps to be liberated in coming months, it's going to be hard to talk Siddarmark down from counter-atrocities all the way to Zion, even across Harchong. There's a crisis that's imperial work. (It may be better for Zhasyn Cahnyr or Maikel Staynair, but hey, Maikel's busy and Cahnyr can use all the backup he can get, particularly at his age.) Chances are there is no single better place to do that work than in Siddar City itself.
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Re: It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:06 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
n7axw wrote:I am not asserting that there is no role for Cayleb in Siddar City. However that being said, his role as Emperor means that his primary responsibility is to the EOC. The role is primarily political as at this time the dynasty is the glue holding the empire together and he should be spending time in Telesberg as well as visiting other parts of the empire to facilitate things meshing together.
Granted - insisted on - that his primary responsibility is to the EoC. That said - where does he have to be to satisfy that responsibility? When he's not alone on the throne, when the Empire needs a monarch to make the calls, Sharleyan suffices inside the EoC. (Possibly better than he does.) Cayleb being in Siddarmark doesn't mean the difference between no resident ruler and one. It just makes the difference between one and two, one and an extra. (Plus opportunities to jack up the heir count from one to one and an extra, if he's in the same place as Sharleyan.)

For roaming around, meshing the Empire together, you've got a stronger point. It's one thing in favor of staying on Tarot for awhile: he'd be in a place that can use that imperial meshing and relatively close to the mainland in case of additional imperial work to be done there. (Or secret seijin work, for Merlin.)

But if he's got more than zero use as emperor in Siddarmark, might that not be enough use to justify remaining there? (Or enough, in addition to it being perhaps convenient for future imperial mainland work and Merlin's cover.) I wouldn't be sure enough to say not. Granted, he does have a lot more to do even in Tellesberg than tea and groping, but symbolically, it would be easy for people to get that impression or have a little doubt that way. And it would be far, far too easy for Cayleb to feel that way, when he's another able-bodied man who, but for accident of birth, would be out on the snow or mud of the Siddarmark battlefields. Siddar City is at least on the same continent as them, and he's at least serving a somewhat more immediate military oversight role there than he would be in Charis or even Tarot.
My comment about Cayleb carousing was intended to be taken tongue in cheek sinse it was in response to the tea in Tellesburg comment as if ruling an empire is a less than full time job, even in peacetime--an assertion which would be nonsense. There is, by the way, textev for me to base my comment in.
Right. There's business to be done in either location and some downtime to be had in either as well. A lot of the immediate imperial work is going to be done so much better inside the empire, but not so much the work that's already being done wherever his co-ruler is. So the comparisons run (1) Siddarmark vs. (2) backing up Sharleyan and maybe help back up Alahnah wherever Sharleyan is vs. (3) being the Emperor inside the Emperor somewhere Sharleyan is not.

I doubt (2) is going to win that priority race, and if (3) comes ahead of (1) at all, I would not put much money on it.
I think that it was a good thing for Cayleb to go to Siddarmark to stand with the Protector in the crisis. But now that the ICA is in place and Siddarmark is making good progress rebuilding its army, the crisis phase of the conflict seems to be largely over.

Maybe, though the bleeding, dying, and killing part has a lot of progress to go, and being far, far away from it will not look or feel good to Cayleb, the troops, or the people sending sons and treasure to the mainland.

And with all that killing, there are other crises ahead. With the camps to be liberated in coming months, it's going to be hard to talk Siddarmark down from counter-atrocities all the way to Zion, even across Harchong. There's a crisis that's imperial work. (It may be better for Zhasyn Cahnyr or Maikel Staynair, but hey, Maikel's busy and Cahnyr can use all the backup he can get, particularly at his age.) Chances are there is no single better place to do that work than in Siddar City itself.


I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Sharleyan has been in Chisholm a quite a bit lately.

Someone might help me out on this... IIRC, Cayleb arrived in Siddarmark somewhat before the first wave of DE's expeditionary force and has been there ever since. That was toward the end of the prior summer campaigning season. Now we are in March, approaching the end of winter, looking forward to the next summer's campaigning season as it is presently March. That would be a minimum of seven months.

Prior to DE's arrival, Cayleb's presence was the guarantee that the EOC stood behind Siddarmark. That was important. But at this time, I simply don't see anything that you have listed as coming up in the war that Cayleb would be instrumental in making happen or that his presence would change one way or the other.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits
Post by OrlandoNative   » Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:20 pm

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n7axw wrote:I think that it was a good thing for Cayleb to go to Siddarmark to stand with the Protector in the crisis. But now that the ICA is in place and Siddarmark is making good progress rebuilding its army, the crisis phase of the conflict seems to be largely over.


The 2 million man Harchonese army hasn't even gotten to Siddarmark's border as yet. I would hardly say the "crisis" phase is over. True, the Siddarmarkans are in much better shape than immediately after the "Sword of Schuler"; but crisis is likely to be the order of the day until their borders are actually *secure*.

n7axw wrote:As for the notion that he should stay until matters are wrapped up, that would be like saying that Roosevelt should have traveled to London in 1942 and held Churchill's hand until after the war was over. As for the idea that anyone whom he would appoint would only be his "minion," I respond that it's done all the time. One might claim that Eisenhower was "only" Roosevelt's "minion" sinse part of his role was to apply the grease that was needed to make things go more smoothly.

Don

Eisenhower was a general. Not really a politician at that time. And the US and the UK have had a "special" relationship for a long, long time. They knew they wouldn't be abandoned; that we wouldn't cut and run, even if things got difficult.

The situation on Safehold is much different. Nation states routinely "stabbed each other in the back". Remember, the history between Siddarmark and the bordering states wasn't inherently peaceful, though it would appear in most cases hostilities weren't initiated by *Siddarmark*. There isn't a history or example of true alliances between nation states on Safehold. How could there be, when the Church itself seems to have fomented hostilities just to keep various nation states from getting too powerful?

Cayleb is setting a precedent - namely, that if you align yourself with Charis, Charis will take that seriously, and support you no matter what. His mere presence makes that clear. Literally nothing else could.

Also, since he *does* have a co-ruler, he is the one person who actually *can* do this without serious impact to the Empire. All the "local" leaders are individuals. True, they may have "first councilors"; but they *are* needed to hold the reigns of their local governments; and they don't have ruler status to the Empire as a whole. Old Charis/Chisholm is the only section of the Empire that has something like this working; and, surprise, guess who their "co-rulers" are?

The same arguments being used to promote his leaving are just as valid for him staying. The communication facilities available to the "inner circle" allow him to be *anywhere*; and still keep totally informed and able to make his wishes known throughout the Empire. So from a "ruling" perspective, his physical location is unimportant.

That said, I'm sure his subjects in Charis wouldn't mind having him home for a bit; but I suspect they also understand why he is where he is better than someone with a current period Earth's point of view.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits
Post by evilauthor   » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:06 am

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Actually, there is one thing we've seen Cayleb do, if not directly.

He had to approve Green Valley's winter offensive. Remember that it's NOT publicly known that Cayleb has instant communications with Green Valley and Sharleyan and other high ranking members of his Empire. So publicly, he needs to be in Siddarmark just so he can shorten his communication loops to his field units.

Sure, someone ELSE could do the job, but could they do the job as well? And being a man of action (or at least as close to the action as he can get), would Cayleb let ANYONE else do the job?
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Re: It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits
Post by wingfield   » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:41 am

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evilauthor wrote:Actually, there is one thing we've seen Cayleb do, if not directly.

He had to approve Green Valley's winter offensive. Remember that it's NOT publicly known that Cayleb has instant communications with Green Valley and Sharleyan and other high ranking members of his Empire. So publicly, he needs to be in Siddarmark just so he can shorten his communication loops to his field units.

Sure, someone ELSE could do the job, but could they do the job as well? And being a man of action (or at least as close to the action as he can get), would Cayleb let ANYONE else do the job?


Given that Cayleb's presence in Siddarmark is SO crucial, when do we get to see a State visit from the Empress to her new ally, with collateral benefits for the succession and so on?
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Re: It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits
Post by Isilith   » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:50 am

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n7axw wrote:
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.



Don



Well, we could, but you would still be wrong. 8-)

You are overlooking one of the greatest assets Cayleb brings. He is the ONE, and ONLY ONE, person that can direct not only the EoC forces, but the RoS forces as well... and "over rule" GS and point him towards the correct "gambles". As he has access to all of OWL's and Merlin's information.

Yes, some of the people that might replace Cayleb for the EoC could have that same access. But they will NOT have the ability to influence GS and the RoS troop movements and battle planning.
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Re: It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits
Post by anwi   » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:18 am

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Isilith wrote:You are overlooking one of the greatest assets Cayleb brings. He is the ONE, and ONLY ONE, person that can direct not only the EoC forces, but the RoS forces as well... and "over rule" GS and point him towards the correct "gambles". As he has access to all of OWL's and Merlin's information.

Yes, some of the people that might replace Cayleb for the EoC could have that same access. But they will NOT have the ability to influence GS and the RoS troop movements and battle planning.

I disagree. Stohnar would no more overrule the official representative of the EoC (and de-facto allied supreme military commander) than he would Cayleb. He, and probably every other senior representative of the RoS, is far too intelligent and too dependent on the EoC for even considering that. And as explained above, there are in the meantime probably several senior Charisian commanders, which could fulfill that role. The only qualification from Cayleb's POV should be that the role has to be fulfilled by a member of the inner circle. And even Duke Eastshare would probably serve given his prior track record. So, I don't buy into this lifeline.
As to stabilizing the alliance: If these arguments were really that convincing, then Pres. Bush and Obama should've spent a considerable time in Afghanistan and Iraq, didn't they? Instead, while they did show up, they left rather quickly. And that's not due mainly to security considerations, which could've been resolved. The reason is the responsibilities of a reigning head of state whithin his own country. And that same argument applies to Cayleb. We should not forget that in the male-dominated (macho) Safehold culture Sharleyan is seen as "second" ruler of the EoC, whoever is calling the shots internally...
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Re: It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits
Post by n7axw   » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:00 pm

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Isilith wrote:
n7axw wrote:
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.



Don



Well, we could, but you would still be wrong. 8-)



Well, I suppose that I could give in and agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong! :D

Don
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Re: It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:09 pm

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The nit that's bugging me is that Owl can't analyze the Key. Understood that it's loaded with defensive malware from Federation technology, but why not spin off copy after copy of Owl and let each one start fresh at the point where the last copy got destroyed?

EDIT: another thing that's bugging me is that Merlin is so emotionally stable. When author Norah Vincent lived in a male persona for a year she had a breakdown. Occupying an obviously male body would be worse. Gender dysphoria should set in, and it's a powerful and dangerous thing psychologically.
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Re: It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits
Post by Isilith   » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:16 pm

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anwi wrote:
Isilith wrote:You are overlooking one of the greatest assets Cayleb brings. He is the ONE, and ONLY ONE, person that can direct not only the EoC forces, but the RoS forces as well... and "over rule" GS and point him towards the correct "gambles". As he has access to all of OWL's and Merlin's information.

Yes, some of the people that might replace Cayleb for the EoC could have that same access. But they will NOT have the ability to influence GS and the RoS troop movements and battle planning.

I disagree. Stohnar would no more overrule the official representative of the EoC (and de-facto allied supreme military commander) than he would Cayleb. He, and probably every other senior representative of the RoS, is far too intelligent and too dependent on the EoC for even considering that. And as explained above, there are in the meantime probably several senior Charisian commanders, which could fulfill that role. The only qualification from Cayleb's POV should be that the role has to be fulfilled by a member of the inner circle. And even Duke Eastshare would probably serve given his prior track record. So, I don't buy into this lifeline.
As to stabilizing the alliance: If these arguments were really that convincing, then Pres. Bush and Obama should've spent a considerable time in Afghanistan and Iraq, didn't they? Instead, while they did show up, they left rather quickly. And that's not due mainly to security considerations, which could've been resolved. The reason is the responsibilities of a reigning head of state whithin his own country. And that same argument applies to Cayleb. We should not forget that in the male-dominated (macho) Safehold culture Sharleyan is seen as "second" ruler of the EoC, whoever is calling the shots internally...


Again, the books point out, at one point, that Cayleb was the ONLY ONE with the stature to influence GS and the RoS... but, sure, you say otherwise.
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