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Merlin was careless?

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Re: Merlin was careless?
Post by evilauthor   » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:30 pm

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McGuiness wrote:
SPOILER!!!!! AND I'M NOT KIDDING!

Note that early in HFQ some 5000 M96 rifles were captured by a Desnairan privateer. We weren't told if the same ship carried ammunition for the M96s as well, but if it did, then Desnair can certainly send samples of the new rifle, its magazines, and its bullets to the Temple. So the CoGA may have examples of this bit of cutting edge Charisian tech already.

However, in my opinion the M96 and brass bullet cartridges are the first bit of technology that the CoGA simply cannot duplicate in sufficient quantity to make the espionage worthwhile. The barrel of the M96 is specially hardened steel with extra deep rifling, and the church simply can't make that quality of steel. (Or it couldn't until the Charisian engineer was murdered and his briefcase was stolen in LaMA.) The bullets require several major technological steps that the Church simply cannot duplicate - certainly not in any useful numbers.

So the CoGA's generals will know the sort of rifle that's killing off their soldiers, but they won't receive similar weapons and ammo before the war is over. :twisted:

END OF SPOILER


I'm reminded of a similar situation in the Island in the Sea Of Time series. Nantucket had designed and started building rifles that used brass cartridges, fully expecting that spies from the other side would steal the design for duplication.

They had actually HOPED the other side would attempt to duplicate the design in every particular, because the other side's production capabilities was so much more primitive that if they attempted to try to mass produce brass cartridges, they'd hopelessly cripple their own industry.

I can see a similar situation arising for the Church when faced with the same situation.
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Re: Merlin was careless?
Post by saber964   » Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:34 pm

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evilauthor wrote:
McGuiness wrote:
SPOILER!!!!! AND I'M NOT KIDDING!

Note that early in HFQ some 5000 M96 rifles were captured by a Desnairan privateer. We weren't told if the same ship carried ammunition for the M96s as well, but if it did, then Desnair can certainly send samples of the new rifle, its magazines, and its bullets to the Temple. So the CoGA may have examples of this bit of cutting edge Charisian tech already.

However, in my opinion the M96 and brass bullet cartridges are the first bit of technology that the CoGA simply cannot duplicate in sufficient quantity to make the espionage worthwhile. The barrel of the M96 is specially hardened steel with extra deep rifling, and the church simply can't make that quality of steel. (Or it couldn't until the Charisian engineer was murdered and his briefcase was stolen in LaMA.) The bullets require several major technological steps that the Church simply cannot duplicate - certainly not in any useful numbers.

So the CoGA's generals will know the sort of rifle that's killing off their soldiers, but they won't receive similar weapons and ammo before the war is over. :twisted:

END OF SPOILER


I'm reminded of a similar situation in the Island in the Sea Of Time series. Nantucket had designed and started building rifles that used brass cartridges, fully expecting that spies from the other side would steal the design for duplication.

They had actually HOPED the other side would attempt to duplicate the design in every particular, because the other side's production capabilities was so much more primitive that if they attempted to try to mass produce brass cartridges, they'd hopelessly cripple their own industry.

I can see a similar situation arising for the Church when faced with the same situation.



That reminds me of the USSR stealing the B-29 at the end of WWII. The USSR spent something like 4 or 5 years copying it down to the tiniest detail(including metal patches from battle damage). By then the US had the upgraded B-50, the B-36 in service, the B-47 in early service and the B-52 in development and would deploy in 1955.
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Re: Merlin was careless?
Post by wingfield   » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:31 am

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n7axw wrote:I agree that no everything gets mentioned. If it did, the story would get lost in the detail and we'd have something the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica...

Don


Given Merlin's track record for cleaning up after himself (the post-mission housekeeping at St Agtha's in BHD comes to mind), I think that this is a given.

Now if you want an Encyclopedia Britannica, my compendium of posts from our respected author currently runs to 214,753 words.
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Re: Merlin was careless?
Post by Astelon   » Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:13 am

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dwileye13 wrote:It is mentioned in a conversation I think, that they had found a campsite for a single individual but did not mention any thing special. aaaaaa sume Merlin is a competent sniper and secret keeper and it is no issue.


Rayno, when discussing the assassination says "He denies demonhood, and perhaps he's telling the truth-certainly, we found where the assassins who murdered Father Vyktyr and Father Hahskyll had camped waiting for their opportunity, and one doubts demons would require campfires or lean-tos. But Whoever they may be, he and his ... allies have demonstrated a very long reach."

Everything about the campsite is mentioned in plurals, and so are the assassins. It appears that Merlin wanted those who came looking afterward to think multiple attackers had assassinated the men, regardless of what the two priests and their guards knew at the time.
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Re: Merlin was careless?
Post by AirTech   » Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:40 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:[


I'd much rather go to Tertius


Lapis Lazuli and Lorelei Lee would be fun to hang out with ....(and their mothers too).
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Re: Merlin was careless?
Post by Keith_w   » Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:35 am

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AirTech wrote:
fallsfromtrees wrote:[


I'd much rather go to Tertius


Lapis Lazuli and Lorelei Lee would be fun to hang out with ....(and their mothers too).


Don't forget their Granny, and their sister Minerva and sister to be Athena...
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Merlin was careless?
Post by PalmerSperry   » Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:49 am

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McGuiness wrote:I always wondered how he hid his horses tracks so that they didn't come to an abrupt end when he reached the lorry... Again, not crucial to the story so RFC didn't explain it.


Walk horses into a big enough body of flowing water and from there into the air lorry. The trackers can spend as long as they want trying to find the exit point, but it wouldn't be entirely surprising if they couldn't find it.
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Re: Merlin was careless?
Post by OrlandoNative   » Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:54 am

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PalmerSperry wrote:
McGuiness wrote:I always wondered how he hid his horses tracks so that they didn't come to an abrupt end when he reached the lorry... Again, not crucial to the story so RFC didn't explain it.


Walk horses into a big enough body of flowing water and from there into the air lorry. The trackers can spend as long as they want trying to find the exit point, but it wouldn't be entirely surprising if they couldn't find it.

Or just find a large expanse of very rocky ground. Probably not all that difficult.

As for the brass, it doesn't really matter either way. If he left it, it would make it absolutely certain where the "orders" originated for this particular incident. If he took it, the Charisian dagger would be suggestive, but not *proof*. Both sides have used deceptions in the past, so a *commonplace* item could, and possibly would, be seen as an attempt to misdirect. After all, this happened far behind the lines. Much easier to suspect some avenging relative with a fair bit of military training did it than some individual soldier from the other side hundreds of miles from any support.

In any case, just having the brass isn't going to tell *much*. The *exact* formulated composition of primer and propellant can't be told after the cartridge is fired; Safehold doesn't have the forensic capabilities we take for granted today. And brass cartridges can (and are) used today in a wide range of weapons with a wide range of capabilities. Unless you actually could "guesstimate" the capability of the particular weapon that fired it, how could you possibly tell which one it actually was? It would be like a 9mm shell today... ...did it come from a revolver, an automatic rifle of some sort, a machine pistol, or out of a magazine of an automatic? All are different. We could speculate today which it might have been given the knowledge of which particular models were manufactured in 9mm versions, and possibly narrow it a bit given ranges and such, but without the actual gun for ballistics tests we wouldn't be able to say for sure or create a duplicate.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: Merlin was careless?
Post by phillies   » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:19 am

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While not mentioned, one expects that he had several SNARCs covering the rear, looking for unexpected company, and cleaning up afterward. He might make mistakes; his tactical computer is reasonably thorough.
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Re: Merlin was careless?
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:12 pm

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Hi Saber964,

It's even worse than that; The soviets knew the early R-3350's weren't very good, and that we were rep[lacing them, but Stalin had said to copy this B-29 exactly so they copied the badly designed early R-3350's exactly and so had the same frequency of engine fires in the Tu-4 [early B-29 copy] as we'd had.

They deserved all of them.

L


saber964 wrote:
evilauthor wrote:*quote="McGuiness"*

SPOILER!!!!! AND I'M NOT KIDDING!

Note that early in HFQ some 5000 M96 rifles were captured by a Desnairan privateer. We weren't told if the same ship carried ammunition for the M96s as well, but if it did, then Desnair can certainly send samples of the new rifle, its magazines, and its bullets to the Temple. So the CoGA may have examples of this bit of cutting edge Charisian tech already.

However, in my opinion the M96 and brass bullet cartridges are the first bit of technology that the CoGA simply cannot duplicate in sufficient quantity to make the espionage worthwhile. The barrel of the M96 is specially hardened steel with extra deep rifling, and the church simply can't make that quality of steel. (Or it couldn't until the Charisian engineer was murdered and his briefcase was stolen in LaMA.) The bullets require several major technological steps that the Church simply cannot duplicate - certainly not in any useful numbers.

So the CoGA's generals will know the sort of rifle that's killing off their soldiers, but they won't receive similar weapons and ammo before the war is over. :twisted:

END OF SPOILER*quote*

I'm reminded of a similar situation in the Island in the Sea Of Time series. Nantucket had designed and started building rifles that used brass cartridges, fully expecting that spies from the other side would steal the design for duplication.

They had actually HOPED the other side would attempt to duplicate the design in every particular, because the other side's production capabilities was so much more primitive that if they attempted to try to mass produce brass cartridges, they'd hopelessly cripple their own industry.

I can see a similar situation arising for the Church when faced with the same situation.



That reminds me of the USSR stealing the B-29 at the end of WWII. The USSR spent something like 4 or 5 years copying it down to the tiniest detail(including metal patches from battle damage). By then the US had the upgraded B-50, the B-36 in service, the B-47 in early service and the B-52 in development and would deploy in 1955.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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