It's nitpicking time! List your favorite safehold nits

OrlandoNative wrote:

Well, Siddar City is closer to Zion than Telesburg is. And, one must admit, having *Caleb* march into the Temple himself rather than even the ranking Imperial Army commander would certainly make a statement like no other.

Of course, I don't really see the Temple's offensive collapsing quite that quickly, but one never knows.

Actually,however, I think you're missing the point. Or, at least, trying to read more into it. Caleb being in Siddar City is theatre, basically showing how important he - and, by extension, the entire EoC - considers the alliance with Siddarmark. It's not like he *has* to be back home, his wife and co-ruler should easily be able to handle any "administrivia" there that happens in his absence. But nothing short of having her swap places with him can show the EoC's solidarity with his (relatively new) allies, and I don't see him putting her in a more dangerous position if he can be there himself.

That's really all the reason needed for him to remain where he is at present.

I think that I agree that both Sharleyan and Caleb are overdue for an extended stay in Tellesburg. DE should probably be appointed theatre commander or perhaps Staynair could assume the role in Sidar City.

It isn't so much that he can't trust the people he has left behind or confer with them, because he can with reasonable comfort do both of those things.

The real issue is political. His primary job is King of Charis and Emperor of the Empire. His visible presence is important to rally his people behind the war as well as to boost morale. Also, Cayleb and Sharleyan are a symbol of the empire and what it stands for. Doing administration stuff can indeed be left to the bureaucrats, but it can put some spring into their step for the Emperor to look in on what they are doing and remind them that their jobs are important and that he is grateful they are doing them well.

Politics is a dirty word, I'm afraid. But it is also fundamental and needs to be done well. Cayleb and Sharleyan do it well.

Don

n7axw wrote:I think that I agree that both Sharleyan and Caleb are overdue for an extended stay in Tellesburg. DE should probably be appointed theatre commander or perhaps Staynair could assume the role in Sidar City.

It isn't so much that he can't trust the people he has left behind or confer with them, because he can with reasonable comfort do both of those things.

The real issue is political. His primary job is King of Charis and Emperor of the Empire. His visible presence is important to rally his people behind the war as well as to boost morale. Also, Cayleb and Sharleyan are a symbol of the empire and what it stands for. Doing administration stuff can indeed be left to the bureaucrats, but it can put some spring into their step for the Emperor to look in on what they are doing and remind them that their jobs are important and that he is grateful they are doing them well.

Politics is a dirty word, I'm afraid. But it is also fundamental and needs to be done well. Cayleb and Sharleyan do it well.

Don

That's all fair and important, but two other points:

One - Cayleb is a young man still, chock full of martial ardor. Given his druthers, he'd be on the front. Siddar City represents a kind of compromise. That's not something that necessarily is a good call for purely rational reasons, but no one is a purely rational entity.

Two - Merlin Athrawes tends to be around Cayleb, for public consumption. But Merlin - by whatever name - has a lot of business all over the mainland, and the recon skimmer isn't quite teleportation. Being based in Siddar City as far as his Merlin identity goes is handy for all the other activities Merlin's got going on, so that's a handy place for Cayleb to be if excuse for it can be found.

JeffEngel wrote:
One - Cayleb is a young man still, chock full of martial ardor. Given his druthers, he'd be on the front. Siddar City represents a kind of compromise. That's not something that necessarily is a good call for purely rational reasons, but no one is a purely rational entity.

Two - Merlin Athrawes tends to be around Cayleb, for public consumption. But Merlin - by whatever name - has a lot of business all over the mainland, and the recon skimmer isn't quite teleportation. Being based in Siddar City as far as his Merlin identity goes is handy for all the other activities Merlin's got going on, so that's a handy place for Cayleb to be if excuse for it can be found.

Those are the most convincing arguments for why Cayleb should stay in. Siddarmark that I've heard yet. Especially the one about keeping Merlin on the mainland.

JeffEngel wrote:

n7axw wrote:I think that I agree that both Sharleyan and Caleb are overdue for an extended stay in Tellesburg. DE should probably be appointed theatre commander or perhaps Staynair could assume the role in Sidar City.
[SNIP]
The real issue is political. His primary job is King of Charis and Emperor of the Empire. His visible presence is important to rally his people behind the war as well as to boost morale. Also, Cayleb and Sharleyan are a symbol of the empire and what it stands for. [SNIP]
Don

That's all fair and important, but two other points:

One - Cayleb is a young man still, chock full of martial ardor. Given his druthers, he'd be on the front. Siddar City represents a kind of compromise. That's not something that necessarily is a good call for purely rational reasons, but no one is a purely rational entity.

Two - Merlin Athrawes tends to be around Cayleb, for public consumption. But Merlin - by whatever name - has a lot of business all over the mainland, and the recon skimmer isn't quite teleportation. Being based in Siddar City as far as his Merlin identity goes is handy for all the other activities Merlin's got going on, so that's a handy place for Cayleb to be if excuse for it can be found.

So, if the first one would apply, not only Cayleb should be aware that his extended stay is actually a mistake and that should translate in bickering in the inner circle conversations. Sharleyan for example would probably twist his tail on every occasion, having a vested interest. And I'd understood Cayleb's character as being - now - adult enough to not fall for that one, if only because his friends prevent him from that fall.
On the second argument: Yes, that would possibly make sense. Unfortunately, however, Merlin is no longer below anyone's radar. So, if the main point of Cayleb's stay would be to place Merlin in a convenient place: Cayleb could easily nominate Merlin as his special envoy. Having gone back to Tellesberg, Cayleb will actually be more safe than he is now in Siddar City with Merlin around. So, that's not convincing as well.
Every angle I look at the issue, there's no overwhelming reason that trumps the strong political reasons for Cayleb's departure being (long) overdue. He really should go back to Tellesberg.
I wonder if that conundrum will be resolved in HFQ...

anwi wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:That's all fair and important, but two other points:

One - Cayleb is a young man still, chock full of martial ardor. Given his druthers, he'd be on the front. Siddar City represents a kind of compromise. That's not something that necessarily is a good call for purely rational reasons, but no one is a purely rational entity.

Two - Merlin Athrawes tends to be around Cayleb, for public consumption. But Merlin - by whatever name - has a lot of business all over the mainland, and the recon skimmer isn't quite teleportation. Being based in Siddar City as far as his Merlin identity goes is handy for all the other activities Merlin's got going on, so that's a handy place for Cayleb to be if excuse for it can be found.

So, if the first one would apply, not only Cayleb should be aware that his extended stay is actually a mistake and that should translate in bickering in the inner circle conversations. Sharleyan for example would probably twist his tail on every occasion, having a vested interest. And I'd understood Cayleb's character as being - now - adult enough to not fall for that one, if only because his friends prevent him from that fall.

People do what they feel a need to do. His troops are fighting and dying. His allies are still fighting a civil war, practically, with the issue not thoroughly settled. There's a fine political argument to make there, but beyond that, there's the need of a responsible wartime ruler to remain nearer the fighting than another continent with his wife and child. Not only is it a matter of image, it's a matter of his exercise of his responsibility as he sees it - and even then, this is a compromise with his own real desire to be at the fighting, not merely in Siddar City.

I'm not really understanding the mindset that can call that action a mistake.

On the second argument: Yes, that would possibly make sense. Unfortunately, however, Merlin is no longer below anyone's radar. So, if the main point of Cayleb's stay would be to place Merlin in a convenient place: Cayleb could easily nominate Merlin as his special envoy. Having gone back to Tellesberg, Cayleb will actually be more safe than he is now in Siddar City with Merlin around. So, that's not convincing as well.

Merlin as Seijin Merlin, Cayleb's preternatural bodyguard and advisor, fits a niche in that perception. People expect him sometimes to be off doing mysterious seijin things, or otherwise just around Cayleb. He's not under the radar exactly but he is seen in relation to Cayleb rather than someone to track or deal with in his own right. Special Envoy Athrawes would be right in the center of attention, with no ability to sneak off without raising eyebrows.

Every angle I look at the issue, there's no overwhelming reason that trumps the strong political reasons for Cayleb's departure being (long) overdue. He really should go back to Tellesberg.
I wonder if that conundrum will be resolved in HFQ...

Eh. The dynastic succession is secure and one of the monarchs is in the capital, whichever is doing the job at the moment. The other monarch is free to be at any secondary location for state interests. Where that nation is fighting for the heart and soul of Safehold, for the life of its ally on the mainland, for the liberation of other nations under the Group of Four's iron boot - is an entirely appropriate place for the young warrior-king.

Sipping tea in Tellesberg, playing with the toddler, and groping his hot babe while his men are killing and dying in the frozen north a quarter world away would be jarring. At least.

Sipping tea in Tellesberg? Oh come on... Whatever Cayleb's personal preferences, a ruler has a whole bunch more to do than to be out leading charges on some battlefield as the Protector pointed out to him in that scene back in MTAT.

After all, he needn't spend the whole war partying and carousing with the Protector (probably more fun than tea in Tellesberg...)

Don

n7axw wrote:Sipping tea in Tellesberg? Oh come on... Whatever Cayleb's personal preferences, a ruler has a whole bunch more to do than to be out leading charges on some battlefield as the Protector pointed out to him in that scene back in MTAT.

After all, he needn't spend the whole war partying and carousing with the Protector (probably more fun than tea in Tellesberg...)

Don

If he really is spending all the Siddar City time staying up late auditioning for "Emperors Gone Wild", then I'll be done defending him. If he's staying up late helping keep Stohnair going while Siddarmark bleeds, and it happens to involve some beer, well, it's a worthy mission and being the Emperor may qualify him to do it better than alternative candidates.

I can imagine other places he may have work to do, but apart from getting Alahnah a backup sibling, they're not in Tellesberg. It could well be that in upcoming months there will be occasions for top-level diplomacy with regard to Silkiah, Dohlar, and Desnair. Til then, he could do worse, easily, than Siddar City as a base preparatory to those moves. Maybe he could do better - say, in Thesmar perhaps. Or making the first imperial visit to Tarot. Thesmar would let him encourage some troops, be nearer the action than most likely alternatives, and get Hanth easy access to Merlin's visions as need be. Tarot would be a win politically and would still be a tolerable sea voyage from key areas. It would also do some good work bringing Tarot into the Empire more as a working partner rather than in it at least as much due to the iron fist as to gentle persuasion.

JeffEngel wrote:

n7axw wrote:Sipping tea in Tellesberg? Oh come on... Whatever Cayleb's personal preferences, a ruler has a whole bunch more to do than to be out leading charges on some battlefield as the Protector pointed out to him in that scene back in MTAT.

After all, he needn't spend the whole war partying and carousing with the Protector (probably more fun than tea in Tellesberg...)

Don

If he really is spending all the Siddar City time staying up late auditioning for "Emperors Gone Wild", then I'll be done defending him. If he's staying up late helping keep Stohnair going while Siddarmark bleeds, and it happens to involve some beer, well, it's a worthy mission and being the Emperor may qualify him to do it better than alternative candidates.
[SNIP]

My problem lies in the textev we have. As I understand it, RFC describes no critically important decisions by Cayleb in MTAT. I still hold that the things done by Cayleb we know about could have as easily been performed by some other member of the inner circle.
As a side remark: Cayleb "carousing" with Stohnar can easily put negatively: The "evil, heretic" Emperor is watching the "incompetent, weak" Lord Protector like a "great dragon with cubs". This clearly demonstrates that Cayleb actually wants to incorporate the RoS as just another province into his realm. Politics can be nasty...
About the only important aspect of Cayleb's overextended stay is that Aivah could approach Merlin at an opportune moment. But that couldn't have justified Cayleb's decision to stay.
As to the previous arguments: During OAR and up to BHD, there were sound reasons for Cayleb to actually lead his troops. Simply put, only he had access to SNARC intelligence. Since several senior Charisian (field) commanders are part of the inner circle (which is expanding), these reasons simply don't apply anymore. My understanding of the responsibilities of a reigning head of state is not that he'd be leading his armies. Cayleb's involvement should be on overall strategic approach and planning and that doesn't require him to be in Siddar City. More importantly, Cayleb literally embodies the EoC and his showing his presence within the EoC should be his prime responsibility. He should lead those efforts within the EoC together with Sharleyan.
So, while I agree that his activities in Siddar City are neither unneccesary nor irrelevant, I see no convincing reason why these have to be undertaken by Cayleb in person. But there are several things within the EoC where his personal attendance would be beneficial - and should be expected by the Charisian population.
I understand that from a narrative point of view such a role might pose several problems to the author. But having Cayleb in Siddar City doesn't solve these problems. Actually, I think Cayleb in (political) action within the EoC would be more interesting than having him watch Nimue wrestling...

I still think that it's a political issue. Not a military one, per se, though it obviously has military implications.

He's the emperor. Siddarmark is a newly signed ally still in significant trouble. His being actually there, even if not on the front lines, boosts the morale of Siddarmark as a whole. It signifies confidence in the ultimate outcome rather than slinking back to where it's safer no matter what that outcome turns out to be. Anyone else - except for Sharleyan - is just a minion. Maybe a high ranking and valued minion, but still a minion. Ultimately replaceable in case of loss. If he were to leave now, before the situation stabilizes, it's going to look like he's running to the common folk. And probably encourage those with Temple Loyalist leanings. No, for now, he has to stay. Perhaps when the Republic's borders are again reasonably secure he could go back to the Empire, but not now.

The conflict in Siddarmark may have *started* as something of a civil war, but it's not any longer - it morphed into an invasion once the first foreign troops crossed the border.

I am not asserting that there is no role for Cayleb in Siddar City. However that being said, his role as Emperor means that his primary responsibility is to the EOC. The role is primarily political as at this time the dynasty is the glue holding the empire together and he should be spending time in Telesberg as well as visiting other parts of the empire to facilitate things meshing together.

My comment about Cayleb carousing was intended to be taken tongue in cheek sinse it was in response to the tea in Tellesburg comment as if ruling an empire is a less than full time job, even in peacetime--an assertion which would be nonsense. There is, by the way, textev for me to base my comment in.

I think that it was a good thing for Cayleb to go to Siddarmark to stand with the Protector in the crisis. But now that the ICA is in place and Siddarmark is making good progress rebuilding its army, the crisis phase of the conflict seems to be largely over.

So it's time for Cayleb to appoint someone, perhaps Domynik Staynair, to stand in his place since he can confer with the good admiral by com. Then he should head for home.

As for the notion that he should stay until matters are wrapped up, that would be like saying that Roosevelt should have traveled to London in 1942 and held Churchill's hand until after the war was over. As for the idea that anyone whom he would appoint would only be his "minion," I respond that it's done all the time. One might claim that Eisenhower was "only" Roosevelt's "minion" sinse part of his role was to apply the grease that was needed to make things go more smoothly.

Don