What did the Temple Circle hope to accomplish?

Actually, nothing so far has undermined the Proscriptions of Jwo-Jeng as part of the Church *dogma*. Not even in the Church of Charis. They are not *openly* violating them, merely finding "loopholes" which allow the exploitation of technology that might not be discovered if one followed the Proscriptions rigidly. Many discoveries and inventions seem simple and obvious *after the fact*; but have prerequisites for actual *discovery*.

Remember the Church of Charis uses the *same* writings as the Church of God Awaiting. The difference is more one of implementation and interpretation of the intended meaning; not outright violation of the letter of them.

It has been mentioned many times that they can't change or ignore the Writ *until* the "moral hold" the CoGA has over the majority of the population is broken.

OrlandoNative wrote:Actually, nothing so far has undermined the Proscriptions of Jwo-Jeng as part of the Church *dogma*. Not even in the Church of Charis. They are not *openly* violating them, merely finding "loopholes" which allow the exploitation of technology that might not be discovered if one followed the Proscriptions rigidly. Many discoveries and inventions seem simple and obvious *after the fact*; but have prerequisites for actual *discovery*.

Remember the Church of Charis uses the *same* writings as the Church of God Awaiting. The difference is more one of implementation and interpretation of the intended meaning; not outright violation of the letter of them.

It has been mentioned many times that they can't change or ignore the Writ *until* the "moral hold" the CoGA has over the majority of the population is broken.

Well, yes and no. While it is true that the proscriptions are not being openly challenged, they are being stretched and worn away by constant probing as the edges and novel interpretations with attestations. The mentality of looking for ways around the proscriptions becomes a way of lessening their authority even though they are not being verbally challenged.

Don

n7axw wrote:

While it is true that the proscriptions are not being openly challenged, they are being stretched and worn away by constant probing as the edges and novel interpretations with attestations.

Remember, too, that corruption has performed some of that same work. After all, black powder was attested, but neither wind, water, nor muscle propels the round down the barrel.

~Tonto

Tonto Silerheels wrote:n7axw wrote:

While it is true that the proscriptions are not being openly challenged, they are being stretched and worn away by constant probing as the edges and novel interpretations with attestations.

Remember, too, that corruption has performed some of that same work. After all, black powder was attested, but neither wind, water, nor muscle propels the round down the barrel.

~Tonto

The muscle of the brain powers everything

looksbeforeheleaps wrote:I always assumed The Circle's plan was to wait until disgust with the excesses of the Go4 and especially Clyntahn had disgusted most of the Vicarate and repeated reverses in the Holy War had undermined the Go4's authority and aura of invincibility.

Then they would release all their evidence, turn all of the uncorrupted members of the Vicarate against the Go4 and stage a 'relatively' bloodless coup.

That was the plan after the initial attack on Charis. Originally, they were hoping to get one of their own elected to Clyntahn's position and between the failure of that plan and the start of the Scism, they were waiting for some other opportunity to work within the system to force reforms.

The Circle was created long before Clyntahn started moving against Charis. They had a plan back then, too. The Circle didn't expect the CoGA to have setbacks in the war; like everyone else, they expected Charis to fall. In fact, they saw Charis's rebellion against the Church to be dangerous.

Tonto Silerheels wrote:n7axw wrote:

While it is true that the proscriptions are not being openly challenged, they are being stretched and worn away by constant probing as the edges and novel interpretations with attestations.

Remember, too, that corruption has performed some of that same work. After all, black powder was attested, but neither wind, water, nor muscle propels the round down the barrel.

~Tonto

Actually, the pressure wave of the released gasses from the explosion propels the round down the barrel, so the same argument for the steam engine (making wind to order) works here, too. Assuming, of course, that the intendant that was no doubt bribed for his attestation even bothered to give a reason why he decided the way he did.

In general, questioning the Church, or, especially for that matter, anyone of the Order of Schuler, was a good way to get one's self in serious trouble.

OrlandoNative wrote:

Tonto Silerheels wrote:n7axw wrote:

While it is true that the proscriptions are not being openly challenged, they are being stretched and worn away by constant probing as the edges and novel interpretations with attestations.

Remember, too, that corruption has performed some of that same work. After all, black powder was attested, but neither wind, water, nor muscle propels the round down the barrel.

~Tonto

Actually, the pressure wave of the released gasses from the explosion propels the round down the barrel, so the same argument for the steam engine (making wind to order) works here, too. Assuming, of course, that the intendant that was no doubt bribed for his attestation even bothered to give a reason why he decided the way he did.

Even then, FIRE is definitely involved in propelling bullets. While fire might not be one of the "holy trinity", people have been using fire since Creation. Kinda hard to cook food without using fire after all.

evilauthor wrote:

OrlandoNative wrote:Actually, the pressure wave of the released gasses from the explosion propels the round down the barrel, so the same argument for the steam engine (making wind to order) works here, too. Assuming, of course, that the intendant that was no doubt bribed for his attestation even bothered to give a reason why he decided the way he did.

Even then, FIRE is definitely involved in propelling bullets. While fire might not be one of the "holy trinity", people have been using fire since Creation. Kinda hard to cook food without using fire after all.

The presence of fire does not help. Sure, fire is permitted, but that doesn't mean that fire is one of the things allowed to do work.

SWM wrote:

evilauthor wrote:
Even then, FIRE is definitely involved in propelling bullets. While fire might not be one of the "holy trinity", people have been using fire since Creation. Kinda hard to cook food without using fire after all.

The presence of fire does not help. Sure, fire is permitted, but that doesn't mean that fire is one of the things allowed to do work.

The fire creates the wind.

Perhaps it's the speed at which the wind is generated- I can see the CoGA utilizing the 'haste is a device of (Shan Wei)'arguement, quite honsetly...