I numbered biochem's points for reference.
1 That is what Osama bin Ladin's apologists say.
It assumes that the two parties both have moral positions.
2 Emotion without logic can push you far astray.
3 That "southern culture" was made by both "white"
and "black" ("redmen" too), and the "whites" had
systematically denied it to the "blacks" and claimed
it all for their own. ("I built this mansion and
plantation," wrote the Master, ignoring the work of
the Slaves.) That Denial is Theft, that Claim is Lies,
and the whole attitude behind them is Shameful!
4 What they saw as Aggression was a (supposed) attempt
to destroy Slavery. (Actually that supposition was
mistaken, because Northerners, and other American
"whites," were too racist to do that without much
provocation. But the supposition was their's.
I suppose that it was caused by guilty consciences.)
Those Slaveholders ought to have destroyed Slavery,
of course. They had from 1783 to 1860 to do so,
all by themselves.
Until 1845 there was no Northern interference strong
enough to be worth mentioning.
Instead, the Slaveholders went astray, by defending
and fortifying Slavery. That error was Shameful.
5 No.
Those supposed Other Issues did not cause War.
All of them could be, and had been, compromised.
You mentioned the Tariff. It was compromised in 1833,
and that Compromise was kept. After 1835, when the
National Debt was paid in full, the Tariff could have
been reduced further, because it was taking people's
money (importers are people) causing a Surplus.
But the Tariff was not reduced further, because the
Compromise Tariff was considered sacred.
Without Slavery, and with ALL of those Other Issues,
no secession-attempt and no war.
Without an*y* of those Other Issues, and with Slavery,
War: the same secession-attempt and war, that happened.
6 Again, No.
We won Independence as one country, not 13
(or 14, Vermont).
USA response to other's breakups: Not Our Business.
Just as the Russians did not send warships to arrest
the Shenandoah's crew for piracy.
7 Yes.
The Secessionist Culture had proved itself contemptible.
More than that, Despicable!
Contempt and Despite are the proper responses to it.
But that does not involve any parts of southern culture
that do not include Slaveholding and Treason.
That Confederate Apologists claim that it does,
is a shield that they attempt to pull over that part
that is Despicable.
Another lie of theirs.
8 So memory of injuries,
and the people who caused them,
and the lies that attempted to justify them,
are matters of emotion only, no logic at all?
What about facts? Have they a place in that argument?
I call "Nonsense!"
9 "To get both sides together" allows the inference
that they ought to get together, as equals or at least
as near-equals.
When one side is composed of Thieves and Liars,
they are Sinners, they are Evil.
Compromise with Evil, Tolerance of it,
refusal to despise it,
only encourages it.
The Remedy is for Sinners to Recognize their Sins,
to Repent them, to Confess them,
and then to undo the damage that they caused.
To "get together" with Evil is Wrong.
Even if the Evil is two levels less bad than the Nazis.
Howard Wilkins, Pointy-Headed Liberal
who notes that
many White Southerners had no part in that Evil.
Nikki Haley, for example.
================================
biochem wrote:1 The pro-Confederate flag and the anti-Confederate flag groups have been talking past each other for years. Everyone is talking and no one is listening.
2 On the pro-flag side - it's all about emotion and not logic.
3 The southern culture was a couple of centuries old at the time of the civil war and (white) southerners were every bit as proud of their culture as the DAR (daughters of the revolution) or Mayflower descendents were of theirs.
4 They really did see the civil war as the War of Northern Aggression.
5 And there was more to the War than slavery. Certainly slavery was the biggest issue (if adding each issue as the percent cause of the civil war it would probably be 70-80%) But it wasn't the only issue. 70-80% doesn't get you all the way to war, that other 20-30% played a role as well. For example, the big business sociopaths that we've all been complaining about in other threads aren't new, they were busy last century too and were using their clout in Congress to pass tariffs etc. The southerners felt that the Northerners were trying to get them on all fronts not just slavery.
6 They also felt entitled to leave a voluntary union if they so chose (they have a good point with this one re the USA response to the break up of the Soviet Union etc).
7 After they lost the war, things become even worse with Northerners expressing significant contempt for (white) southern culture. A contempt which continues today. Rednecks, uncultured, comedy skits featuring southern accents etc etc.
Whether or not these beliefs are factually correct isn't the main thing, it's all about emotions. To many the flag has come to represent that culture the Northerners feel such contempt for, their culture. And they have basically a "screw you" feeling about the anti-flag groups. They don't want to listen because they feel personally insulted.
In the south the flag is everywhere, it's in car dealership ads, etc. It's a lot more Dukes of Hazard (1980s TV hit show for those outside the USA) than KKK. So since they intend it to represent their culture not as a racist statement, they are personally insulted by the accusation of racism and feel it's more Northern contempt triggering the "screw you" response.
8 On the anti-flag side - it's also all about emotion
Being a slave was a horrible horrible thing. I agree murder was rare (the economic incentives were strongly against it) but rape wasn't. The selling of children wasn't. Grand theft slave (aka kidnapping) wasn't.
To them the emotions the flag evokes aren't nostalgia for a centuries old culture but a reminder that their ancestors were property and that they themselves were second class citizens until very recently. The stories THEIR grandparents tell aren't of battlefield heroics but of nightmares that were all too real.
To them the link to racism is real and solid.
9 To get sides together
1. Stop the name calling. As soon as white southerners are accused of being racist, the conversation is over.
2. The best response I've seen (and I don't have the exact quote so I'm paraphrasing the best I can) is that even though the flag is very important to (white) southern culture, it causes such pain to our black brothers and sisters, that the Christian thing to do would be to make the sacrifice and remove the flag.
It's a great response because 1. It doesn't shut down conversation by accusing people of being racist, 2. It affirms the value of (white) southern culture and acknowledges the sacrifice people are being asked to make and 3. It appeals to the very strong religious values present among white southerners and reminds them that those values are shared by their black brothers and sisters.
3. The extraordinary Christian response of the families of the shooting victims... "I forgive you" "hate won't win"
That extraordinary response love not attack helps bring people together.
4. Nicki Haley's initial response to the shooting “We woke up today, and the heart and soul of South Carolina was broken,” helped set the tone for her government. Not attack, not the political blame game but SHARED grief. That the grief was SHARED helps bring together the two sides.
5. And the mayor of Charleston "This hateful person came to this community with this crazy idea that he would be able to divide us, but all he did was make us more united and love each other even more." Again not attack but SHARED grief and SHARED Christian values.
and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.
