Confederate flags, tinfoil hat crowd and other nutters.

gcomeau; I dont understand. The Nazies murdered millions of Jews in Germany (and Europe) during WW2. Probably some were my distant relations.

I do not remember learning that the South on purpose murdered millions of black slaves. That was the comparison. Nothing more. Ahh ... more ...

Are you actually suggesting that the South murdering black people was comparable and equal to the Nazis killing Jewish people during WW2? That is what I hear?

If soss, not even close. Probably very few black slaves in the South were murdered by anybody. They were valuable property. Very expensive indeed.

But, in Europe during WW2, literally millions of Jews were murdered by the Nazis. Millions. To even compare the two horrible events is strange.

IMHO, your presentations slip around some. Your arguments slide sideways from the discussions at hand and focus on some obscure portion of others point of view.

Then you attempt to attack that from some vague point of logic. I for one do not understand this. Perhaps you can be more forthcoming and precise?

Respectfully. HB of CJ (oldest Southern Coot)

And if you think celebrating a symbol of slavery and oppression can be spun into "honoring our heritage", you're out of your mind.

See this article here? It's a prime example of why you guys need more education about the shitty things your ancestors in the south did.

As people have remarked over this, if you feel like "honoring your heritage", noone's going to stop you.

But that's not something the government should be doing, and it isn't something you should be expecting any help with from the big retailers, either.

Do you revere the flag of the United States?

Some things that happened under that flag:

Genocide, Whole tribes of native Americans were exterminated.

Concentration camps, Indian Reservations, the Japanese Americans in WW 2.

Legal Discrimination based on Race Jim Crow Laws, Indians not considered citizens or able to vote long after freed slaves had the franchise.

Forced movement and loss of property, Native Americans and Japanese again. Did you know that many Native Tribes forced into exile in Indian Territory, later Oklahoma, joined the Confederacy to fight against that hated flag of oppression.

Forced purchases of insurance IE Social Security, Affordable Care Act, and Liability insurance.

Toppling dully elected governments in foreign lands and installing dictators. The banana republics and arguably the Confederate States of America.

Allowing murder, torture, detention without allowing due course of law, violation of Civil Rights, Constitutional Rights, violation of international treaty obligations, testing drugs, radiation effects with out informed consent, yep Homeland Security various executive orders by presidents of both major political parties. All things we prosecuted Nazi War Criminals for.

We complacently watched as the War on Drugs turned our police into jack-booted thugs. The War on Radical Islam turned our army into Nazis.

Hmm people in glass houses should be cautious throwing brick bats.

Poker

How much empathy do you have for those who feel
differently than you on this, pm?

HTM

pokermind wrote:
Hmm, You still have no empathy with those who feel differently than you on an issue, Hmm, not being able
to have empathy for other people is the definition of
being a psychopath. Hmm,therefore you are a nutter. Hmm,
the exact same thing that caused the Southerners to
decide to withdraw from the union causing the civil war.
{snip - htm}

pokermind wrote:Do you revere the flag of the United States?

No, I don't. Not being an American, I have no strong feelings about it one way or another (And, for the record, the same is true about my country's flag).

Some things that happened under that flag:

Genocide, Whole tribes of native Americans were exterminated.

Concentration camps, Indian Reservations, the Japanese Americans in WW 2.

Legal Discrimination based on Race Jim Crow Laws, Indians not considered citizens or able to vote long after freed slaves had the franchise.

Forced movement and loss of property, Native Americans and Japanese again. Did you know that many Native Tribes forced into exile in Indian Territory, later Oklahoma, joined the Confederacy to fight against that hated flag of oppression.

Forced purchases of insurance IE Social Security, Affordable Care Act, and Liability insurance.

Toppling dully elected governments in foreign lands and installing dictators. The banana republics and arguably the Confederate States of America.

Allowing murder, torture, detention without allowing due course of law, violation of Civil Rights, Constitutional Rights, violation of international treaty obligations, testing drugs, radiation effects with out informed consent, yep Homeland Security various executive orders by presidents of both major political parties. All things we prosecuted Nazi War Criminals for.

We complacently watched as the War on Drugs turned our police into jack-booted thugs. The War on Radical Islam turned our army into Nazis.

Hmm people in glass houses should be cautious throwing brick bats.

Poker

All of that is a bit irrelevant for the discussion though. All of those things, while terrible, represent a failure of the people living under that flag to properly follow the ideals it is meant to represent.

On the other hand, people treating black citizens as second class, holding them as slaves? They were definitely following the ideals of their flag.

What I noticed about that line was the "honest toil"
part. The "toiling" was (in large part) done by the
slaves, and then the "earned property" was stolen from
them, by the slaveholders, the local, state, and even
the federal governments, and sometimes even by others
of the "master class" who happened by.
But it now seems that you know that, too, and we
are looking at that abomination from different angles.

Regarding the bakery, were I the lawyer,
I would advise against suing, and were I the judge,
I would dismiss the lawsuit.
I find it a Bad Idea.
We are a capitalist country, earning our livings by
selling our services, and here are a baker & a florist,
refusing their services to people whom they despise
at the risk of bankruptcy and starvation,
and now in the court are those same despised people,
suing to force those anti-capitalist fools to accept
their money anyway, and prosper!
Me, I would not do it. I'd refuse to force money into
their pockets, and then I would urge my friends to
Boycott them. Let them go bankrupt and starve,
if that is who they are!

When a heritage is abominable,
love of it is just that bad.

Howard "Map-addict" Wilkins, Pointy-Headed Liberal

pokermind wrote:I can only shake my head, here I give you the first Confederate national song to look at, and you did not catch the salient point. There is a line in there "We fight for our property we earned by honest toil" Property was a polite word for slaves in the south at that time that would prove your argument that the war was about slavery. Many southern apologists refuse to acknowledge that the war was about slavery.

The law in South Carolina was a protest to integration passed in the middle of the Civil Rights struggle and IMHO should be repealed. I'm old enough to recall the Whites only sings in the south and thinking how stupid and unfair it was.

So why I could not contradict your points, I agreed with them. Hence cute kitty.

OK it's OK for gays to sue a bakery for not making a gay wedding cake due to the owner's beliefs, but it's not OK to sue Wallmart for refusing to make a cake with the Confederate flag so justify that contradiction to me. Both after all are just business decisions. Hmmm, a hint discrimination is discrimination both are justifiable law suits.

I still maintain that love of heritage and hate of injustice the flag represents are both valid for the individuals holding them. Who am I or you for that matter to judge the more valid view.

Poker

These things that happened under our flag,
were a Betrayal of our Ideals and thus our flag.

What happened under Confederate flags (hi Pogo!),
were a Fulfillment of their ideas (I won't say Ideals).

HTM, PHL

pokermind wrote:Do you revere the flag of the United States?

Some things that happened under that flag:

Genocide, Whole tribes of native Americans were exterminated.

Concentration camps, Indian Reservations, the Japanese Americans in WW 2.

Legal Discrimination based on Race Jim Crow Laws, Indians not considered citizens or able to vote long after freed slaves had the franchise.

Forced movement and loss of property, Native Americans and Japanese again. Did you know that many Native Tribes forced into exile in Indian Territory, later Oklahoma, joined the Confederacy to fight against that hated flag of oppression.

Forced purchases of insurance IE Social Security, Affordable Care Act, and Liability insurance.

Toppling dully elected governments in foreign lands and installing dictators. The banana republics and arguably the Confederate States of America.

Allowing murder, torture, detention without allowing due course of law, violation of Civil Rights, Constitutional Rights, violation of international treaty obligations, testing drugs, radiation effects with out informed consent, yep Homeland Security various executive orders by presidents of both major political parties. All things we prosecuted Nazi War Criminals for.

We complacently watched as the War on Drugs turned our police into jack-booted thugs. The War on Radical Islam turned our army into Nazis.

Hmm people in glass houses should be cautious throwing brick bats.

Poker

Old Coot,
Have you forgotten who fired on Fort Sumter.
I haven't.

It was the Confederacy (not the South; it included a
few Northerners) that thus attacked the Union(again,
not the North; more than half of all Southerners
remained loyal to the Union (yes, I count the Blacks;
how not?)!

If you want the True Name for that war, then it was
The War For Slaveholders' Privileges.

As for what you were taught, it was Lies,
Obvious Lies that you ought to have seen though,
and that many of your neighbors did see through.

The easiest way to compare conditions of immigrants
and of slaves, is to compare the number of immigrants
who sold themselves into slavery, with the number of
slaves who took their freedom when they could.
Note that the "wage slaves" metaphor ignores that they
could walk away whenever they chose.

But Yes, the Nazis were at least one level worse than
the Slaveholders, maybe two. I agree with you there.

HTM, PHL

HB of CJ wrote:gcomeau; I believe the North attacked the South. The South just wanted to go its own way. I also believe comparing the Nazis with Jews and the Confederacy with Blacks is also rather blunt and not accurate. The South did not murder Blacks.

The Northern States also had slavery. The South probably took better care of their slaves than the North did with the cheap throw a way whites working in the northern company towns. The slaves did have better medical care. The North gave none.

The average slave in 1860 cost over $20,000 by todays value. Very spendy. Only one in five Southerners even owned slaves. The slaves life style was very harsh indeed. They were slaves. But there are comparisions to living conditions of the Northern poor whites.

We were taught, (Deep South) that it was economic/political conditions that led to the War Of Northern Agression. Yes, slavery did enter into it. Compare such slave conditions to that of the fresh off the boat European white immigrant arriving then.

All of this happened a long time ago. What I find scary is the power block or power base that has the ability to ignite such media conditions and supercharge perhaps non prior existing conditions. Now who would be doing that? And for what purpose?

Respectfully. HB of CJ (Oldest Southern Coot)

HB of CJ wrote:gcomeau; I dont understand. The Nazies murdered millions of Jews in Germany (and Europe) during WW2. Probably some were my distant relations.

I do not remember learning that the South on purpose murdered millions of black slaves. That was the comparison. Nothing more. Ahh ... more ...

This was the comparison, if i might quote my own post from up thread:


"The Nazi's had the Jews and the Confederacy had black people. The Nazi's marched their demonized minority off to concentration camps, the Confederacy enslaved them, raped and murdered them, and used them for forced labor. You can try nitpicking the moral differences between them and weighing them on the scales against each other if you really like to try to argue which was more despicable..."

Are you actually suggesting that the South murdering black people was comparable and equal to the Nazis killing Jewish people during WW2? That is what I hear?

I'm saying flat out that the Confederacy making black people property, pressing them into forced labor, raping them, depriving them of all human rights, beating them, forbidding them any education or sense of self worth, breaking up and selling off chidren and parents, killing them for any offense up to and including "sassing" a white person, and making them endure these conditions for their ENTIRE LIVES as they live in constant fear and subjugation is AT LEAST as bad as killing people.

At least killing is quick. Not a soul crushing torment with no end (until, of course, eventual death).

If soss, not even close. Probably very few black slaves in the South were murdered by anybody. They were valuable property. Very expensive indeed.

Oh, yes, quite expensive. Which didn't stop them from being killed for pretty much any offense a slave-owner might decide he wanted to kill them for. Including to set an example so the rest of their property would 'stay in line'.

But yeah, they wouldn't kill them wholesale, that would cost too much money.

Flogging on the other hand, that works wonders.

But, in Europe during WW2, literally millions of Jews were murdered by the Nazis. Millions. To even compare the two horrible events is strange.

Do you have any idea how many black people were killed by the slave trade????? Hint, "millions" is the word to use there too. The deaths during transport alone were phenomenal. Then there's how many got killed during the process of capturing and kidnapping them from their homes in Africa since, you know, they tended not to volunteer for that. Then there's how many got killed once they arrived and committed some capital offense, like talking back to their owner. Or trying to run away.


And that's just looking at the deaths, then factor in the horrors of what was done to the ones who WEREN'T killed and you start to get a grasp on the scope of the evil involved.

Yes, easily on par with the Nazis. EASILY. You don't even want to imagine the human toll if the Confederacy had *won* the war and actually wielded power over an entire nation of their own for any significant length of time the way the Nazis did.

pokermind wrote:Do you revere the flag of the United States?

Nope, never saw much point revering colored cloth... but let's pretend I did... I already addressed everything you are saying in this post:


viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7139&start=3


"The American flag legitimately represents far more than some of the isolated dishonorable and shameful incidents that occurred throughout the nation's history. The Confederate flag on the other had was purpose made for the Confederacy at the beginning of the war and was used ONLY by the Confederacy during the war.


It represents exactly one thing. The Confederacy and their cause. Anyone wants to claim they're waving it around to represent their proud heritage it's THAT HERITAGE they're saying they're proud of. Which as individuals they're still entirely entitled to do. It makes them pretty despicable (or, in the most generous interpretation I can come up with, horribly historically clueless) but they're allowed to be despicable or clueless.


But the government of your state putting its official stamp of approval on its display is a totally different animal. It is a disgrace."