Size of the Science Fiction market?

OrlandoNative wrote:

SWM wrote:There is some truth to the idea that media books bring fans into the market, including female fans. But it is also pushing other science fiction off the shelves. Look at the science fiction shelves in any bookstore. More than half of the shelf space is held by media books--hundreds of titles for Star Wars, Star Trek, Dungeons and Dragons, and various computer games. For the last year or two most of the remaining shelf space is dedicated to the vampire/werewolf/zombie books that are the latest fad. Those new fans coming into the market are not even seeing the full scope of science fiction because media books and the latest fad have pushed most of it off the bookshelves.

I don't know if I'd agree with that. There are at least 6 Barnes and Noble stores in the greater Orlando, FL area. I've been in most of them. In each of those, there have been at *most* 2 racks of "media books". The rest are all regular science fiction and fantasy. Of course, I'd say over HALF of THAT is pure fantasy, rather than any kind of science fiction. The dedicated percentage of space for the media titles is probably at most somewhere between 20-30%, depending on the store and the total rack count.

It's possible other locations around the country, and possibly other independent or chain stores, might be different, though.

Your experience fits with mine though there are only two Barnes and Noble stores and three used book stores in my area that I go to regularly plus another Half Price books I visit when I get the chance, usually my birthday or when mom's family is visiting.

MuonNeutrino wrote:

roseandheather wrote:And for Star Wars, I have zero interest in the rest of the Expanded Universe but am seriously considering reading the Thrawn Trilogy because it is, apparently, just that damn good.

The Star Wars expanded universe stuff, in general, varies *wildly* in quality. The Thrawn trilogy is very good, especially because, as the very first expanded universe novels written, it didn't have to worry about dealing with a ton of pre-existing continuity. The (much later) Hand of Thrawn duology is also not bad, though bogs down a bit in terms of that same continuity bloat. Apart from those, I personally considered Stackpole and Allston's X-Wing books (and the related I, Jedi), while very different in tone than Zahn's, to also be quite good. On the other hand, most of the rest ranges from mediocre to utter dreck, and you're best off completely ignoring anything set in the New Jedi Order era or later when the setting goes *completely* off the rails.

agree completely. Zahn, Stackpole and Allston are really the only ones worth the money or time. The Allston's I think are great just because they somehow balance genius craziness with white knuckle dogfights.

OrlandoNative wrote:

SWM wrote:There is some truth to the idea that media books bring fans into the market, including female fans. But it is also pushing other science fiction off the shelves. Look at the science fiction shelves in any bookstore. More than half of the shelf space is held by media books--hundreds of titles for Star Wars, Star Trek, Dungeons and Dragons, and various computer games. For the last year or two most of the remaining shelf space is dedicated to the vampire/werewolf/zombie books that are the latest fad. Those new fans coming into the market are not even seeing the full scope of science fiction because media books and the latest fad have pushed most of it off the bookshelves.

I don't know if I'd agree with that. There are at least 6 Barnes and Noble stores in the greater Orlando, FL area. I've been in most of them. In each of those, there have been at *most* 2 racks of "media books". The rest are all regular science fiction and fantasy. Of course, I'd say over HALF of THAT is pure fantasy, rather than any kind of science fiction. The dedicated percentage of space for the media titles is probably at most somewhere between 20-30%, depending on the store and the total rack count.

It's possible other locations around the country, and possibly other independent or chain stores, might be different, though.

Please pay attention. I say again: that quote was posted 2 years ago. The situation has improved quite a bit since then. But back two or three years ago, every major book store I went to (including Barnes and Noble) had more than half of their science fiction space taken up by media-related books--Star Wars, Star Trek, Buffy, Dungeons and Dragons, Halo, World of Warcraft, some comic books spinoffs, and lots of others. Some of it (a fairly small fraction) was good. And it was nice for those people interested in those franchises. But altogether there was too much.

It is a lot better now, I am glad to say. But it was definitely a problem for a number of years. It was a frequent topic of discussion at science fiction conventions, and among SF authors. And it was not limited to any one area of the country. It was a widespread problem.

munroburton wrote:Pretty much hits every target for the best SW EU books there - basically the best authors are Zahn, Allston, Stackpole, each with their own style. I'll just add that Allston also did a couple of NJO books which had me in tears of laughter, although you might need to have read at least the whole NJO series and the other mentioned books to get some of the best references.

Allston's NJO books were fun reads, but that's because Allston himself wrote very good books, not because the NJO as a whole was any good (IMO). Those were definitely some of the highlights of the NJO, but I personally don't think it'd be worth it to slog through the entire NJO just for them. Like I said, for me at least the NJO is where the SW EU went completely off the rails, and I'd hesitate to recommend it to anyone else.

MuonNeutrino wrote:The Star Wars expanded universe stuff, in general, varies *wildly* in quality. The Thrawn trilogy is very good, especially because, as the very first expanded universe novels written, it didn't have to worry about dealing with a ton of pre-existing continuity.

I have to nitpick here, unless we have different definitions of "expanded universe". To me, that means any novel written in that universe that *is not* a direct novelization of the movies.

That said, the nitpick is that Alan Dean Foster's Splinter of the Mind's Eye was *the* first expanded universe novel, given to him by Lucas as thanks for ghost writing the first Star Wars novelization.

I bought it when it was first published, and at that time, the only other Star Wars novel out was the aforementioned novelization of the first movie.

Edit: Oh, and it is, to date, the *only* expanded universe SW novel I have any intention of (re)reading. I couldn't care less about anything else.

roseandheather wrote:
Believe you me, you will know when I have finished Like A Mighty Army (currently on How Firm a Foundation) because I will descend upon that thread with all the fire of a thousand suns.

SNIP.

Heh Heh you will be most welcome over there
Dont scorch us too much though!

PS I vaguely seem to recall that you were US based - if so, I hope you are enjoying the UK!

Funny thing about Media franchise novels - I'm not sure they are such great sellers. Last time I walked into a Games Workshop store asking about a Warhammer 40k novel (part of the hilarious Caiaphas Cain series) they told me they no longer stocked novels because they weren't profitable.

And about the Star Wars EU novels - the Thrawn trilogy was quite good, as are the X-Wing series (both of them). I don't know about the NJO books because I stopped reading in disgust after they killed a certain main character. Nothing I've heard about it since makes me want to go back.

As for the Jedi Academy series: Kyp Durran (sp?) is basically the second coming (1st coming? in release order) of Anakin Skywalker. They make you want to slap them for being spoilt bratty punks.

When it comes to Dungeons & Dragons novels I can recommend Elaine Cunningham's Starlight & Shadows trilogy, which was a great story with a heartfelt ending. If you like comedy you also should not miss out on Paul Kidd's Justicar trilogy (starting with White Plume Mountain - he's just getting warmed up in that one).

Now that I start thinking about it does anyone else think there is a resemblance between Victor Cachat and Artemis Entreri?

BobfromSydney wrote:I don't know about the NJO books because I stopped reading in disgust after they killed a certain main character. Nothing I've heard about it since makes me want to go back.

You didn't miss much. And the continuing storyline after the NJO was even less interesting.

MuonNeutrino wrote:

BobfromSydney wrote:I don't know about the NJO books because I stopped reading in disgust after they killed a certain main character. Nothing I've heard about it since makes me want to go back.

You didn't miss much. And the continuing storyline after the NJO was even less interesting.

I actually liked most of the NJO series though I made the mistake of reading the fourth and fith books in the series, which are IMO the weakest duology in it, first and didn't read any more from it until on vacation when I desperately wanted a book to read on a long drive I was going on the next day and an NJO book was the only book in the local Wal-Mart that I was remotely interested in and didn't already own. I decided it was ok and went back to read what I missed.

What's funny is the same basic pattern happened with me with the earlier Star Wars novels. I read The Lando Calrissian Adventures shortly before Heir to the Empire came out, hated them, didn't read any new Star Wars novels for years, picked one up in desperation from Wal-Mart (The one in my old hometown this time) and liked it enough that I went back and read the ones I skipped.

Anymore I basically read any novels I can find linked to franchises I enjoy because while many suck there are usually diamonds in the roughs.

BobfromSydney wrote:Funny thing about Media franchise novels - I'm not sure they are such great sellers. Last time I walked into a Games Workshop store asking about a Warhammer 40k novel (part of the hilarious Caiaphas Cain series) they told me they no longer stocked novels because they weren't profitable.

It's hard to extrapolate from that statement. Games Workshop doesn't sell any other kind of novels either, so it is more accurate to say that Games Workshop does not find selling any kind of novels profitable. It's not the business they are in, and not where people go to buy novels.

It is also indicative of the fact that even dedicated bookstores are having more difficulty making a profit selling books. Notice how many bookstores have gone out of business.

Now, assuming publishers are producing fewer media-related novels (which appears to be the case), it is likely that they are becoming less profitable. But I don't think you can really infer very much from Games Workshop ending sales of media novels.