OBS Triggers?

Duckk wrote:It is called out in the Writ that lightning is solely in Langhorne's domain. The Writ spells out exactly what lightning is and what place it occupies in the CoGA. To quote David:

...the notion of lightning as sacred and not, under any circumstances, to be profaned by mortal hands provides the permanent remembrance of not just Langhorne's existence but of the consequences of Langhorne's wrath.

Neither gunpowder nor steam have that kind of specificity to it, which is why their introductions could get away with it with a bit of handwaving from the intendants and inquisitors.

Ok. So what we have here is an argument from silence. That is always a bit weak, but sometimes it's a valid approach, given the lack of specificity you refer to.

Still, there is a counter-argument. Apparently wind, water and muscle are the power sourses Safehold is limited to. Steam is a pretty long stretch on this. Father Paityr probably took the only out he had on that. But gunpowder? That one is so far around the bend that you can't even even see the curve as far as the allowable power sourses that the proscriptions allow. I see no possible rationalization that would allow gunpowder to be regarded as in conformity with either the letter or the intent of the proscriptions...except the rather large bribe we know from textev was offered.

Yet, there is no way to bribe the OBS. What should have triggered a response didn't. I suppose that one of the other explanations for that offered in this thread can't be ruled out. But the one that I think satisfies Occum's razor the best is that the thing is on manual and won't react without input.

Don

[edit to clarify garbled paragraph]

You seem to be overestimating the distinctiveness of gunpowder.

What are the signatures of the use of gunpowder? An earth-shattering ka-boom. Sorry, but the OBS isn't going to hear that. Flashes of light? Not always visible at all, not always distinguishable from permitted activities and only reliably detectable in clear weather, at night. Smoke? Lots of things produce smoke, what's special about gunpowder smoke? It's a burning mixture carbon and sulfur, so that should give it away, shouldn't it - except that at least 3 metals in common use, lead, zinc and copper, are recovered by roasting sulfide ores with charcoal or coal, giving you what? Burning carbon and sulfur, of course. In much larger quantities, too. If you set the OBS to slaughter every unfortunate trapper who builds a fire ring out of sulfide rocks but leave smelters alone, but only if he's in the right place to be noticed, Langhorne gets a reputation for arbitrary injustice that may be merited but isn't the picture the Writ is trying to convey.

As has been argued with steam, it is very, very hard to find a remote signature for gunpowder that is completely, totally and indisputably a marker of prohibited activity. Even if it were explicitly prohibited, enforcement would still be dependent on [hobnailed] boots on the ground. Which is probably why it wasn't explicitly prohibited in the first place.

By contrast, electricity does have a distinct, remotely detectable signature that won't be associated with any possible permitted activity. Ka-BOOM!

Duckk wrote:It is called out in the Writ that lightning is solely in Langhorne's domain. The Writ spells out exactly what lightning is and what place it occupies in the CoGA. To quote David:

...the notion of lightning as sacred and not, under any circumstances, to be profaned by mortal hands provides the permanent remembrance of not just Langhorne's existence but of the consequences of Langhorne's wrath.

Neither gunpowder nor steam have that kind of specificity to it, which is why their introductions could get away with it with a bit of handwaving from the intendants and inquisitors.

n7axw wrote:
Ok. So what we have here is an argument from silence. That is always a bit weak, but sometimes it's a valid approach, given the lack of specificity you refer to.

Still, there is a counter-argument. Apparently wind, water and muscle are the power sourses Safehold is limited to. Steam is a pretty long stretch on this. Father Paityr probably took the only out he had on that. But gunpowder? That one is so far around the bend that you can't even even see the curve as far as the allowable power sourses that the proscriptions allow. I see no possible rationalization that would allow gunpowder to be regarded as in conformity with either the letter or the intent of the proscriptions...except the rather large bribe we know from textev was offered.

Yet, there is no way to bribe the OBS. What should have triggered a response didn't. I suppose that one of the other explanations for that offered in this thread can't be ruled out. But the one that I think satisfies Occum's razor the best is that the thing is on manual and won't react without input.

Don

n7axw wrote:Ok. So what we have here is an argument from silence. That is always a bit weak, but sometimes it's a valid approach, given the lack of specificity you refer to.

Still, there is a counter-argument. Apparently wind, water and muscle are the power sourses Safehold is limited to. Steam is a pretty long stretch on this. Father Paityr probably took the only out he had on that. But gunpowder? That one is so far around the bend that you can't even even see the curve as far as the allowable power sourses that the proscriptions allow. I see no possible rationalization that would allow gunpowder to be regarded as in conformity with either the letter or the intent of the proscriptions...except the rather large bribe we know from textev was offered.

Yet, there is no way to bribe the OBS. What should have triggered a response didn't. I suppose that one of the other explanations for that offered in this thread can't be ruled out. But the one that I think satisfies Occum's razor the best is that the thing is on manual and won't react without input.

Don

Yes. We all agree that gunpowder and steam are both against the intent of the Proscriptions. We agree. At the same time, David has made it clear that electricity is not in the same category as gunpowder and steam. The authors of the Writ went out of their way to expressly and in no uncertain terms prohibit electricity. It is clear that electricity was something they were very specifically concerned about.

Yes, gunpowder, steam, and hundreds of other things (some of which have been introduced to Safehold already) are clearly against the intent of the Writ. But electricity holds a special and almost unique place in the Writ. You cannot extrapolate from reactions to steam to reactions to electricity. Just because the OBS did not react to steam does not mean that it will not react to electricity.

Merlin needed steam. He does not need electricity. Steam was worth the risk. Electricity is not, especially since Merlin could not introduce electricity even if he wanted to.

I actually agree with you that there is a reasonable chance that the OBS does not have any active triggers, except direct ground control. But I completely disagree with you that experiments with steam are equivalent to experiments with electricity. The express prohibition of electricity (unlike almost everything else) makes electricity a special cause for concern. It's as if the authors were saying "And at all costs, do not cross this line." Merlin interprets that line as the line where the OBS might react. And since electricity is not needed, and could not be introduced even if it were, there will be no experiments with electricity. That alone makes electricity different from steam.

I agree that there is a reasonable chance the OBS might not have any automatic attack triggers. If it doesn't automatically attack, it likely has triggers to awaken whatever is "sleeping" underneath the temple. That something will then assess the situation and decide on potential responses. In this case the response is likely to be the destruction of Charis.

Hi Louis R,

I've really gotten what I wanted to say on this subject off my chest. But I will add here that I am wondering how this has anything to do with my saying that gunpowder is against the proscriptions. Any sourse of power that goes boom, strong or weak, does not originate with wind, water or muscle and is thus forbidden.

As for the OBS not detecting it, with current satelite systems we could determine artificial flashes and booms at our present level of tech. Most surely TF tech at a time in the future woyld be even more capable.

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi Louis R,

I've really gotten what I wanted to say on this subject off my chest. But I will add here that I am wondering how this has anything to do with my saying that gunpowder is against the proscriptions. Any sourse of power that goes boom, strong or weak, does not originate with wind, water or muscle and is thus forbidden.

As for the OBS not detecting it, with current satelite systems we could determine artificial flashes and booms at our present level of tech. Most surely TF tech at a time in the future woyld be even more capable.

Don

But isn't gunpowder simply a means of harnessing the power of the air, expanding rapidly, to force things apart?

And also this whole 'Holy Lightening' thing seems to be setting up people who get hit by lightening as heretics being struck down by Holy Langhorne with his Holy Lightening, not to mention the shocks people get from static electricity, which, granted they may not associate with lightening.

n7axw wrote:Hi Louis R,

I've really gotten what I wanted to say on this subject off my chest. But I will add here that I am wondering how this has anything to do with my saying that gunpowder is against the proscriptions. Any sourse of power that goes boom, strong or weak, does not originate with wind, water or muscle and is thus forbidden.

As for the OBS not detecting it, with current satelite systems we could determine artificial flashes and booms at our present level of tech. Most surely TF tech at a time in the future woyld be even more capable.

Don

Given the explosions are contained, I doubt any orbital sensors could detect them. The combustion products are indistinguishable from a fire or smelting process (worth remembering that gunpowder doesn't explode, it burns rapidly at a rate proportional to the pressure it experiences). Most chemical explosives explosives have nitrogen, carbon dioxide (or monoxide if poorly mixed) and water as exhaust products (ignoring the more modern chlorine and fluorine based exotics and metal based explosives). The total combustion product production volume is insignificant when compared to a medieval cities normal smoke haze (not even considering the burning of coal - masses of sulphate containing smog forming a permanent cloud - London type pea soup fog...).

Keith_w wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi Louis R,

I've really gotten what I wanted to say on this subject off my chest. But I will add here that I am wondering how this has anything to do with my saying that gunpowder is against the proscriptions. Any sourse of power that goes boom, strong or weak, does not originate with wind, water or muscle and is thus forbidden.

As for the OBS not detecting it, with current satelite systems we could determine artificial flashes and booms at our present level of tech. Most surely TF tech at a time in the future woyld be even more capable.

Don

But isn't gunpowder simply a means of harnessing the power of the air, expanding rapidly, to force things apart?

And also this whole 'Holy Lightening' thing seems to be setting up people who get hit by lightening as heretics being struck down by Holy Langhorne with his Holy Lightening, not to mention the shocks people get from static electricity, which, granted they may not associate with lightening.

Now that one I hadn't thought of... Of course you'd have to factor in heat and pressure...

Don

I basically agree with the results of the previous discussion. Steam engines, gunpowder, etc. simply don't provide sufficiently specific signals for even someone as Chihiro to set an automatic trigger to.
And I think specificity is the main issue here. Even Chihiro won't be interested in accidentally triggering the OBS, given the likely implications. Simultaneously, Chihiro obviously wanted to prevent any pathways to the level of technology either attracting the Gbaba or allowing Safeholdians to leave their planet. However, the "archangels" tech-level obviously does not trigger the OBS, as demonstrated by Merlin on numerous occasions.
With this in mind, the likely options are rather limited.
Most likely are large-scale AC or DC generators (i.e. power plants) and/or distributions grids. Noteably, low intensity DC power (batteries) as needed for good I&C should pose no problems at all. Merlins tech is a good indicator for that.
Second, nuclear fission reactors might get set to a trigger. However, fusion reactors obviously are not.
Chemical propulsion systems capable of reaching Safehold's orbit (i.e. rockets) might be another trigger, although that is doubtful, since the signal wouldn't be that specific and small scale rockets are no trigger.
And with that, my imaginations runs out.

anwi wrote:And I think specificity is the main issue here. Even Chihiro won't be interested in accidentally triggering the OBS, given the likely implications. Simultaneously, Chihiro obviously wanted to prevent any pathways to the level of technology either attracting the Gbaba or allowing Safeholdians to leave their planet. However, the "archangels" tech-level obviously does not trigger the OBS, as demonstrated by Merlin on numerous occasions.

I think there might also be a "minimum level" to detection parameters; The Inquisition needs to be given a bit of time/room to resolve the issue without "divine intervention."

But the issue for Merlin isn't how the OBS is programmed, but how the OBS Might Be programmed. He has to act as if the worst possible programming option is true. The penalty for being insufficiently paranoid is total failure and destruction of the entire Empire of Charis -- and allies. Basically the potential destruction of everything except the Temple and Zion.

It isn't likely that any rational programmer would program the OBS for that level of destruction to prune back technological advances, but Langhorne, Chihiro and the other archangels weren't noticeably rational people.