OBS Triggers?

n7axw wrote:

SWM wrote:Did you read the FAQ?

Merlin WILL NOT do that, because of the danger that he loses instantly. Merlin is trying to save the entire human race. But if the OBS wakes something up under the Temple, Merlin loses. There would be no second chance. Testing whether the OBS will trigger on electrical equipment is gambling with the future of the entire human race.

Merlin does not need electricity to defeat the CoG. He does not need to introduce electricity until he is certain that the OBS and whatever is under the Temple are neutralized. Merlin will not experiment with electricity. He is not going to roll the dice with the fate of humanity on a single toss.

I'm not really contradicting you here, SWM. But I don't quite understand how the force of logic is different for steam as opposed to electricity. Merlin set up a test to see if he would get a reaction to steam on the Castaway Is. The presumption was that should the OBS react it would be to attack the Castaway Is. Why would the presumption be different should a similar test be arranged for electricty?

Don

There are two differences between steam and electricity. 1) Merlin was almost certain that steam would not trigger the OBS.
2) Merlin decided that he needed steam manufacturing in order to defeat the CoGA.

Merlin decided that risk was low enough and the benefit was important enough to test it. On the other hand, electricity is specifically prohibited by the Proscriptions. If anything will trigger the OBS, then electricity will do it. Merlin does not need electricity to advance his plans at this point. The high risk of triggering the OBS and the lack of need for electricity means that Merlin will not experiment with electricity.

I just remembered the third difference between steam and electricity. Steam they could manage to pass off as acceptable under the Proscriptions. Electricity they cannot. It is specifically prohibited, and the Inquisition has had to deal with people in the past who experimented with electricity. Everyone knows that Langhorne's Rakurai is prohibited. Charis cannot introduce electricity until the Proscriptions have fallen completely. That is not likely to happen during this war. Even the merest hint that Charis was experimenting with electricity would cause even their own population to turn against the Emperor and Empress. Even if Merlin wanted to introduce electricity, he could not, and will not be able to for some time to come. So there is no reason to experiment with something they cannot use and which carries an huge risk of destroying everything Merlin is trying to do.

And a further thing to consider, even if an electricity did not activate the OBS it could wake the something under the temple up. If that something were then to start looking over data gathered by the OBS it would likely see the steam test. After seeing how rapidly it progressed from simple steam engines to more complicated ones it would see the test for what it was, a test to bait the OBS. Who started using steam after the test, oh yeah one empire did. Whatever it is has a target.

I am of course assuming that what is underneath the temple is competent, intelligent, has computer support (AI or just really good systems), and can control the OBS. The thing under the temple may be a shutdown PICA (like Merlin was), or an AI, as long as it can think and consider for itself.

n7axw wrote:

SWM wrote:Did you read the FAQ?

Merlin WILL NOT do that, because of the danger that he loses instantly. Merlin is trying to save the entire human race. But if the OBS wakes something up under the Temple, Merlin loses. There would be no second chance. Testing whether the OBS will trigger on electrical equipment is gambling with the future of the entire human race.

Merlin does not need electricity to defeat the CoG. He does not need to introduce electricity until he is certain that the OBS and whatever is under the Temple are neutralized. Merlin will not experiment with electricity. He is not going to roll the dice with the fate of humanity on a single toss.

I'm not really contradicting you here, SWM. But I don't quite understand how the force of logic is different for steam as opposed to electricity. Merlin set up a test to see if he would get a reaction to steam on the Castaway Is. The presumption was that should the OBS react it would be to attack the Castaway Is. Why would the presumption be different should a similar test be arranged for electricty?

Don

Electricity is virtually guaranteed to be a trigger based on the proscriptions of the OBS is automatic. Further, it, in the large quantities required for industrial processes, gives off a huge signal that is easily detected from orbit. Steam on the other hand, is much less likely to be a trigger and is more difficult to detect at range, at least up to certain levels.
In the risk benefit analysis, steam is a pretty safe call, where as electricity has an incredibly high risk and no real benefit.

First of all, I agree with the precautions, but only because that seems to be the way that the author is developing the story and of course the previous reference to the faq, which of course has the status of canon. It's RFC's story, after all.

But I don't think the matter I've raised is out of line. First, steam is clearly in violation of the proscriptions. Go back and read that section of HFAF. Before Father Paityr is even approached, Sharlyean and Cayleb were aware of the difficulty. In fact, one of the reasons for bringing Father Paityr into the truth and the inner circle is the need for his help in getting around the proscrptions, particularly with reference to steam.

Secondly, during Father Paityr's conversation with Howsmyn on the subject, he is clearly aware of the difficulty and finally waltzes around it with what he calls chop logic...which as we all know is not logic at all in a valid sense, but rather rationalizing one's way to the wanted conclusion. Father Paityr in this scene moves from a fair minded enforcement of the proscriptions to join the quest to find ways of circumventing them.

Finally, consider the matter of gunpowder. If anything violates the guidelines of wind, water and muscle power that the proscriptions are supposed to be guarding, gunpowder does...even though the church has sanctioned it under the influence of a bribe. So does the OBS react? No...even though this is just as obvious of a breech of the proscriptions as introducing electricity would be.

Therefore here is what seems to me to follow. The system is on manual. There was no automatic response to gunpowder, to steam, nor in all probability would there be to electricity although this last is as yet unproven. As for the possibility of something waking up under the Temple or wherever to assume control of the OBS, at this moment that is speculative.

As for the political side of things, that is an entirely different dicussion. I fully agree that the risk of how the people of Safehold would react is such that electricity cannot be introduced at this time.

Don

n7axw wrote:But I don't quite understand how the force of logic is different for steam as opposed to electricity.

It isn't a matter of logic, it's a matter of the difference between an inquisitor's judgement call and an explicit prohibition.

n7axw wrote:Therefore here is what seems to me to follow. The system is on manual. There was no automatic response to gunpowder, to steam, nor in all probability would there be to electricity although this last is as yet unproven. As for the possibility of something waking up under the Temple or wherever to assume control of the OBS, at this moment that is speculative.

This may just be a result to the settings a non intelligent automatic system is using. The person who originally created the settings for automatic reprisal may not have have known, and not bothered to figure out, how to differentiate a normal fire from a steam engine. He or she may have decided that it really didn't matter either.

But since electricity is specifically prohibited-and you can do things like advanced manufacturing, missiles, and spaceships with it-the likely hood is that any artificial generation of electricity trigures the OBS. Assuming of course that there are automatic protocols.

Also the OBS doesn't have to be triggered to ruin Merlin's mission. The "something" under the temple merely has to be woken up.

n7axw wrote:First of all, I agree with the precautions, but only because that seems to be the way that the author is developing the story and of course the previous reference to the faq, which of course has the status of canon. It's RFC's story, after all.

But I don't think the matter I've raised is out of line. First, steam is clearly in violation of the proscriptions. Go back and read that section of HFAF. Before Father Paityr is even approached, Sharlyean and Cayleb were aware of the difficulty. In fact, one of the reasons for bringing Father Paityr into the truth and the inner circle is the need for his help in getting around the proscrptions, particularly with reference to steam.

The question is certainly not out of line. And you are correct that steam is definitely against the intent of the Proscriptions.

But electricity is more than merely against the intent of the Proscriptions. It is explicitly prohibited, specifically and in detail.

Merlin was fairly confident, for various reasons, that steam would not trigger the OBS. But electricity is in a different category. It is specifically named in the Proscriptions and specifically prohibited. It is one of the few things that are specifically prohibited. It is clear that electricity was a specific concern to authors of the Writ. If the OBS is indeed autonomous, and if there is any technology that will trigger the OBS, we can be confident that electricity is one of the triggers. Merlin is certain of this. Just because the OBS did not react to gunpowder or steam does not mean the OBS does not have any automatic triggers. Neither of them was explicitly prohibited; electricity was.

Then we get back to the other two points that I made. Merlin does not need electricity at this stage of the plan. And it would be impossible to introduce electricity anyway, not until the Proscriptions have been completely removed.

On the other hand, Merlin decided that he did need steam manufacturing in order to defeat the CoGA. Given that Merlin believed the risk of steam triggering the OBS was low, he was willing to experiment with steam. The risk from electricity is not low. If anything will trigger the OBS, then electricity is 100% guaranteed to trigger it, according to Merlin's analysis. He does not know how much or what form of electricity would be necessary to trigger it, and he does not need to find out. It is safer to just avoid it until the Proscriptions have been removed and the OBS is not a threat.

SWM wrote:

n7axw wrote:First of all, I agree with the precautions, but only because that seems to be the way that the author is developing the story and of course the previous reference to the faq, which of course has the status of canon. It's RFC's story, after all.

But I don't think the matter I've raised is out of line. First, steam is clearly in violation of the proscriptions. Go back and read that section of HFAF. Before Father Paityr is even approached, Sharlyean and Cayleb were aware of the difficulty. In fact, one of the reasons for bringing Father Paityr into the truth and the inner circle is the need for his help in getting around the proscrptions, particularly with reference to steam.

The question is certainly not out of line. And you are correct that steam is definitely against the intent of the Proscriptions.

But electricity is more than merely against the intent of the Proscriptions. It is explicitly prohibited, specifically and in detail.

Merlin was fairly confident, for various reasons, that steam would not trigger the OBS. But electricity is in a different category. It is specifically named in the Proscriptions and specifically prohibited. It is one of the few things that are specifically prohibited. It is clear that electricity was a specific concern to authors of the Writ. If the OBS is indeed autonomous, and if there is any technology that will trigger the OBS, we can be confident that electricity is one of the triggers. Merlin is certain of this. Just because the OBS did not react to gunpowder or steam does not mean the OBS does not have any automatic triggers. Neither of them was explicitly prohibited; electricity was.

Then we get back to the other two points that I made. Merlin does not need electricity at this stage of the plan. And it would be impossible to introduce electricity anyway, not until the Proscriptions have been completely removed.

On the other hand, Merlin decided that he did need steam manufacturing in order to defeat the CoGA. Given that Merlin believed the risk of steam triggering the OBS was low, he was willing to experiment with steam. The risk from electricity is not low. If anything will trigger the OBS, then electricity is 100% guaranteed to trigger it, according to Merlin's analysis. He does not know how much or what form of electricity would be necessary to trigger it, and he does not need to find out. It is safer to just avoid it until the Proscriptions have been removed and the OBS is not a threat.

Nice response, SWM. But what leads you to believe that by way of contrast toelectricity, gunpowder and steam were not explicately prohibited?

Don

It is called out in the Writ that lightning is solely in Langhorne's domain. The Writ spells out exactly what lightning is and what place it occupies in the CoGA. To quote David:

...the notion of lightning as sacred and not, under any circumstances, to be profaned by mortal hands provides the permanent remembrance of not just Langhorne's existence but of the consequences of Langhorne's wrath.

Neither gunpowder nor steam have that kind of specificity to it, which is why their introductions could get away with it with a bit of handwaving from the intendants and inquisitors.