Relative size of combatants

Yes, any calculation that tries to compute power based on regular physics will fail. I don't question that. But something is creating the force that is being used to counteract gravity and hold the mass there. Whatever is creating that force does cost electrons or their magical equivalent to run the mechanism generating that force. As text evidence, here is a quote from HHNF, the attack on Fort Ghartoun:

The cargo-master slapped his shoulder again, harder this time, and Halesak nodded vigorously. Then the dragon swept over the parapet of the fort, clearing it by barely fifty feet, and braked into an abrupt hover as the Gifted cargo-master activated the levitation spell.
The spell wouldn’t support the dragon’s heavy bulk for more than a very few minutes, but that was all the time in this universe – or any other – Iftar Halesak and his men needed.

The question isn't if there is a cost (and I assume this is what Peter means when he refers to energy and power; most people use those words to refer to things like battery time and fuel usage), simply what it is. And this and other quotes indicate that the cost increases with increasing mass. Unfortunately, we know nothing about the means of generating that force or how efficient it is, so we don't have nearly enough information to calculate how much magic it takes.

Louis R wrote:That's why "power" is in quotes - the whole exercise is physically meaningless. I engaged in it simply to show that the original suggestion lead to a result that doesn't make any sense - that the longer you stay up, the less power you need to do it.

BTW, that helicopter is a perfect example of what I've been trying to get at; thank you.The energy is not being spent 'holding it up', it is spent moving the rotors against the drag force of the air they're moving in: it is being dissipated internally in the system that generates the force holding the aircraft in equilibrium. And in fact it does matter how high it is, although usually not enough to notice - drag is a function of air density and temperature, and decreases with height at a different rate than the lift generated by the blades.

bkwormlisa wrote:The problem I have with this calculation (and Peter's) is that you're using the potential energy of height. A helicopter (to use the previous example) doesn't care about height. it can be 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 feet off the ground, and it takes just as much additional force from the rotor (and thus, additional energy/fuel) to hold it up. Textev is that levitation accumulators can be used to let a dragon carry tons more, so they aren't "pushing" off the ground and the height probably has little or no relevance. So I don't believe any calculation that relies on height or time to reach the ground can be applicable. That's what I find so difficult about calculating this sort of thing.

I cannot believe that it can hover there for free, whatever the physics involved, and the textev specifically states that it can't. It also states that the higher the weight, the more the cost and/or the lower the time it can float is. Calculating how much magical energy it takes will depend on how much magical energy it takes to create a force that can counterbalance the weight, or to change the gravity of that much mass to zero. Unfortunately, I don't think we have enough information to make that calculation.

Peter, I don't agree that there are clearly two different types of levitation. Something is creating a force that is perpendicular to the gravity field (and in some cases, like the chairs and table, prevents it from easily moving laterally as well), but there is no evidence of how. It might be making the stretcher (or whatever) "fall" upward with enough force to support whatever is lying on that (as a crude description), but we don't know if it involves gravity or not. Even if it is manipulating gravitons, that would not mean it had zero mass, simply zero or negative weight. And there is equally no evidence that anything on or in the levitated object is directly affected by the spell; it appears that they are held by normal force against the surface.

But it could just as well be electromagnetic or something that has no connection to anything we know. Weber has said the physics in their home universes does not match ours, after all, and the suggestion is that such things won't work on Sharona either. So it may be "pushing" off something that doesn't even exist on Earth. It's equally possible that Weber hasn't specifically named the physical force it's using because he doesn't care. It works, and while he usually tries to describe physics to explain how things work in space, in a situation where nothing we know applies, he may not even define it to himself. Because of that, I think we're chasing something in circles that can't be caught.

PeterZ wrote:I would like to complicate the issue. Text describes 2 different effects from levitation spells. The levitating chairs and tables of the Fallen Timbers negotiations did not function as if they and the objects or people on them had zero mass. Those tables and chairs were suspended by some force making them stable enough to sit on and rest items on.

The levitating spells used with transport dragons do appear to alter the impact of gravity on the mass within its area of effect.

Neither affect changes our inability to calculate the amount of energy involved or know the level of Gift required create and then charge the different spells.

bkwormlisa,

Agreed on all counts.

Regardless of any inability to calculate the cost of these spells, there is a cost and it does matter as that cost impacts Arcana's ability to engage in economic activity and war. In the end the cost will be counted in terms of Gifted required to generate a given effect. That and the cost in the Gifted's effort to make arcane tools and spells that enable the non-Gifted to contribute to both the economy and ability to fight this war.

Trying to glean hints of these sorts of costs from text is tricky and likely futile. Unless, the ability for Arcanan society to leverage magic at some specific level relative to the Sharonan society's ability to leverage technology is crucial to the plot, RFC will keep that unknown to provide greater flexibility to write the story. Personally, I suspect that we will get a clearer idea of the arcane's ability to be leveraged relative to technology. The inherent inequality bestowed by the Gift is simply too interesting a theme not to weave into this story. To make reading about that theme really interesting, its strengths and weaknesses needs to be clearly known. Otherwise, any conflict between the Gifted and non-Gifted will lack tension.

On the issue of technology versus magic, one of the things I have been reading lately is a book on artillery that goes into the art of indirect machinegun fire and how it developed in WWI.

Machinegun indirect fire was strongly tied to the development improved of tripod elevation and azimuth mechanism and various forward observer or map methods to take advantage of this precision tracking and elevation capability.

The implications for the pending Sharonan Triasum (sp?) gap assault -- given distance viewers and flicker talents immediately on either side of the gate -- are huge.

Indirect machinegun fire pushes Arcanian troops outside of infantry dragon range of the gate simply via visuals through the gate.

Once distance viewers get through the gate with a covered trench path back through the gate with sufficient overhead cover to stop Infantry, Field or living Dragon breath weapons. Distance viewers and flicker to gate runner to flicker talent communications networks can drop adjusted heavy artillery on any Arcanian position within the artillery fire fan of the gate.

There is quite literally nothing the Arcanians can do to stop this sort of creeping artillery offensive, other than providing targets, short of sending living dragons to kill the guns.

And the Ft Salby losses means they won't consider it without -a lot- of supporting deception magic.

PeterZ wrote:bkwormlisa,

Agreed on all counts.

Regardless of any inability to calculate the cost of these spells, there is a cost and it does matter as that cost impacts Arcana's ability to engage in economic activity and war. In the end the cost will be counted in terms of Gifted required to generate a given effect. That and the cost in the Gifted's effort to make arcane tools and spells that enable the non-Gifted to contribute to both the economy and ability to fight this war.

Trying to glean hints of these sorts of costs from text is tricky and likely futile. Unless, the ability for Arcanan society to leverage magic at some specific level relative to the Sharonan society's ability to leverage technology is crucial to the plot, RFC will keep that unknown to provide greater flexibility to write the story. Personally, I suspect that we will get a clearer idea of the arcane's ability to be leveraged relative to technology. The inherent inequality bestowed by the Gift is simply too interesting a theme not to weave into this story. To make reading about that theme really interesting, its strengths and weaknesses needs to be clearly known. Otherwise, any conflict between the Gifted and non-Gifted will lack tension.

Mil-tech bard wrote:On the issue of technology versus magic, one of the things I have been reading lately is a book on artillery that goes into the art of indirect machinegun fire and how it developed in WWI.

Machinegun indirect fire was strongly tied to the development improved of tripod elevation and azimuth mechanism and various forward observer or map methods to take advantage of this precision tracking and elevation capability.

The implications for the pending Sharonan Triasum (sp?) gap assault -- given distance viewers and flicker talents immediately on either side of the gate -- are huge.

Indirect machinegun fire pushes Arcanian troops outside of infantry dragon range of the gate simply via visuals through the gate.

Once distance viewers get through the gate with a covered trench path back through the gate with sufficient overhead cover to stop Infantry, Field or living Dragon breath weapons. Distance viewers and flicker to gate runner to flicker talent communications networks can drop adjusted heavy artillery on any Arcanian position within the artillery fire fan of the gate.

There is quite literally nothing the Arcanians can do to stop this sort of creeping artillery offensive, other than providing targets, short of sending living dragons to kill the guns.

And the Ft Salby losses means they won't consider it without -a lot- of supporting deception magic.

Two things that will be a factor, The Sharonians may not realize just how much of an advantage their artillary gives them (they could literally blast the Arcanans out of the cut with the guns they currently have). The size of the forces engaged are actually quite small, I think the Arcanans had less than a full division before they started the campaign, and are basically down to two airmobile brigades once losses and line of communication troops are factored in. Ft. Salby was defended by what amounted to a reinforced brigade (reinforcements included division's artillery park). Sharonia will start their counter offensive with a partially mechanized division and a cavalry brigade. The Sharonian forces are likely to have additional reinforcements behind them, while we have no word on weather the Arcanans should expect any reinforcements in the next 6 months.

The problem with trying to fight down the Traisum Cut is that one combat engineer with a demolition spell can bring down the wall, thus blocking the cut and possibly burying part of the assualt force. Even with talents they might not be able to get every force in time to prevent sabotage, if the sharonians try get through with a quick attack.

In order to make a successful attack down the cut chan Geraith would have to completely secure the portal, make sure no arcana forces were left behind in Traisum, and establish a beach head in the next universe to protect that end of the cut from a counter assault aimed at damaging it. The first two are doable, especially with talents to help sniff out any stragglers. The third is problematic. The sharonians can't put a beachhead from Traisum into Karys without using the cut, and they can't use the cut without the arcanans attempting to attack or destroy it.

The only other option is to get Harshu to pull out willingly after you have secured the portal. Things that might make Harshu pull out are threats of being surrounded (he finds out about a sharonian offensive up the Kelsyr chain), or possibly causing enough damage to his combat units or logistics that he feels he has no choice. Unless Harshu is willing to attack the sharonian positions again, or the arcanans are parked to close to the portal inviting artillery attack, they can't cause Harshu losses

Astelon wrote:The problem with trying to fight down the Traisum Cut is that one combat engineer with a demolition spell can bring down the wall, thus blocking the cut and possibly burying part of the assualt force. Even with talents they might not be able to get every force in time to prevent sabotage, if the sharonians try get through with a quick attack.

In order to make a successful attack down the cut chan Geraith would have to completely secure the portal, make sure no arcana forces were left behind in Traisum, and establish a beach head in the next universe to protect that end of the cut from a counter assault aimed at damaging it. The first two are doable, especially with talents to help sniff out any stragglers. The third is problematic. The sharonians can't put a beachhead from Traisum into Karys without using the cut, and they can't use the cut without the arcanans attempting to attack or destroy it.

The only other option is to get Harshu to pull out willingly after you have secured the portal. Things that might make Harshu pull out are threats of being surrounded (he finds out about a sharonian offensive up the Kelsyr chain), or possibly causing enough damage to his combat units or logistics that he feels he has no choice. Unless Harshu is willing to attack the sharonian positions again, or the arcanans are parked to close to the portal inviting artillery attack, they can't cause Harshu losses

I understand your points except one minor issue, I thought the cut was on the Ft Salby side of the portal, thus there are unlikely to be anyone with demo charges on that side of the portal.

The cut is on the Traisum side of the portal, which is the only thing that makes it possible at all. Now consider what Harshu would do if the chan Geraith tried to force an offensive down that cut. Harshu's only real way to stop the offensive is a counter offensive aimed at the cut's destruction. In this case it is all to possible for a small arcanan force to acheive that goal, despite sharonian preparations to stop it.

If chan Geraith could get a beachhead in Karys (in front of the cut) and secure the portal to keep dragons from crossing through, then he most likely would be able to force an assault. Getting the needed beachhead without using the cut is currently impossible, a typical catch 22.

My understanding of the current military situation at the Traisum cut is a bit different then most here.

First of all, I understand that Harshu has deployed forces on the Traisum side of the portal. The second chapter of RTH spoke of the Sharonans using artillery to push him back from the approaches to the portal, proving he currently holds them.

Second, I think people are seriously underestimating how bad the terrain is. While we don't have a map the descriptions have emphasized that it is very constricted and very steep. Also, remember that there is no reason the portal needs to be perpendicular to the valley, it may be midway up one of the valley walls. Sharonan infantry attacking toward the portal may be attacking up 45 degree, or steeper, slopes. Those hills will give defenders a huge advantage.

Third, the Arcanans will have gotten a lot better at building fortifications that can stand off artillery. They saw what happened at the swamp portal and they have examined chan Tesh's fortifications. They will have learned from both and won't be easily pushed out by artillery.

Fourth, the several hundred foot cliff walls at the portal itself will create a large dead zone, at its base in Karys, which Sharonan artillery can't reach. In addition the nature of portals will make it very difficult, probably impossible, for the Sharonans to find positions from which they can fire at dragons approaching in Karys from the narrow side of the portal. These means Harshu will have a secure base and a secure supply line which the Sharonans can't attack.

Fifth, we don't know what Arcanan combat engineers construction abilities are. If a slower but more controlled version of the demolition spell can dig tunnels then the Arcanans should be able to combine the levitation spell with tunnels running from the cliff in Karys to firing positions beneath the surface in Traisum. Those will be almost immune to artillery fire, very difficult to find and ideal for raiding Sharonan rear areas.

Sixth, given the difficulties of the slopes, the fact that the only way the Sharonans will be able to fire on the base of the cliff is via direct fire from the top, and assuming that artillery dragons with the range to reach the top of the cliff. If all the above is true even after reaching the top of the cliff I suspect that Sharona would have a lot of difficulty suppressing the fire of Arcanans at the base. That would be a nasty attritional fight.

In summary, taking the portal, excluding the cut, won't be near as easy for Sharona as people are thinking. I agree they can do it, but I think they will need at least two full infantry divisions against the forces Harshu has now and they will bleed at least one of them white in the process. Chan Geraith doesn't have that many troops so he can't do it. In addition he is probably assuming that the Arcanans have some type of indirect fire artillery that he hasn't seen yet. All in all, if the 4000 mile run he is planning is possible and he seems to think it is, although I wonder what he is going to burn crossing the Great Plains, his plan is better then a direct attack.

Nicholas

I am unsure of exactly where Harshu has left forces, though leaving pickets to guard the Cut (and send warning of any attack) in Traisum wouldn't surprise me, in fact it would be a smart thing to do. Those forces can probably be completely dealt with, once you have secured the portal sufficiently to make flying dragons through it serious risk. I doubt it would even be difficult unless, Harshu wanted to leave a large force where it could potentially be cut off and destroyed, or where he would have to risk precious transport dragons to evacuate it.

The question then becomes what those forces do when they find themselves trapped and under attack. That largely depends on orders Harshu has given them, and the Traisum-Karys portal is a much larger obstacle to Sharona (as in impassable) than it is to Arcana (an annoyance require still more transport capacity to bypass) without the Cut. Damaging the Cut is a logical action for the arcanans, hence any picket forces likely have orders to that effect. As I said earlier they can probably be dealt with, given sharonian talents and artillery.

Yes the terrain is bad, really bad in fact. It will take longer for chan Geraith to control the portal enough to make it hard on dragons to fly through it. That's just fine though, he needs time for his Kelsayr offensive to get behind the arcana expeditionary force. The rest of the issues can be dealt with, the bad terrain won't conceal the supposed arcanan pickets from the combined efforts of plotters and distance viewers. Once the sharonians know where the pickets are, they are far less likely to pose a danger to the Cut, or any assault force.

As for arcanan fortifications getting better I mostly agree with you. My only two questions are, have they gotten better fast enough, and have they had the time to build capable fortifications?

If Harshu has parked a force in the dead zone at the base of the cliff, that force is likely to find itself trapped in that spot, once chan Geraith gains complete control of the portal access. They won't be able to pull out without coming under artillery fire sufficient to kill transport dragons, from the Traisum side of the portal. That force will still be a danger to any attack down the Cut, and to the Cut itself. However, without their mobility advantage, they are likely to be destroyed eventually.

No we don't know what arcanan engineers are capable of building, or how quickly. Why make a point that they may have some major advantage in tunneling, when the story offers no indication of it. They may have a tunneling spell or they may not. I will let the story tell me when I can read that part.

In your sixth point you say the sharonians can only use direct fire on any arcanans at the base of the cliff. In reality they could put a fuse or timer on a barrel of explosive and roll it over the side. Makeshift bombs for the win, and with the work force for the railroad they could probably make a large number of them over a month or so.

Still largely agree with your summary though, although you might be overestimating the troops required to actually take the approaches to the portal. Taking those approaches will still be a difficult task.

This is RFC on the terrain of the Ft Salby portal from RTH Official Snippet #2 --

From the Fort Salby side, the approach is a standard mountainside and slope. From the OTHER side, it's a sheer cliff --- the exposed "heart of the mountain" --- and the cut is just that: a straight sided cut, open at the top, and not a tunnel. The cut itself is wide enough to double-track a heavy freight line with extra width cars AND the equivalent of a 2-lane roadway.

That help?

Lets look at what that means.

The Sharonan's cut a ~100 yard wide open path at the bottom of a thousands of foot high cliff and ran it up at a low rise angle until it breached out the other side of the mountain.

Which means we are looking at a 20 to 50 to one ratio wider mouth at the top of the cut, AKA 2,000 to 5,000 yards.

And with the unsupported air on one side from the portal, the shear cliff likely had a _HUGE_ debris field at its bottom, if only from the world pressure equalizing winds, that had to be cleared by blasting/heavy machinery before an attack of the cliff could begin.

And the blasting had to begin at the bottom, under the lowest point cut into the mountain by the pressure driven winds.

Given that Ft Salby looks down the cut, and the heavy machine guns reach out 1500 yards, I don't see Arcanians laying demo spells within machine gun range of the mouth of the cut.