What I see as Charis's biggest problem

I'm thinking that simple production of new weapons is going to be Charis's biggest issue. As the tech base becomes more advanced for weapons the precision in the engineering needed to make the new weapons effective is going to advance as well.

I've seen threads talking about breech loading weapons being the next innovation for the Charisians, this over looks that any breech loading design is an order magintude more complex than a muzzle loader from an engineering and production veiwpoint. More complex generally means more time and more skilled labor needed to produce the componets of the weapon.

Just look at the exploding shells and the production bottleneck they have. The one thing Charris needs more than another new weapon type is a means of mass producing what they've already developed.

This means they NEED steam power. With steam power they can place their production in MORE places than just where water wheels are effective. By being able to have MORE production locations you can have more production.

There isn't enough information on the effeciency of Charis's waterwheel industry, but I feel its safe to say that initial steam powered factories will be less effcient than water wheel power, simply due to newness of steam power.

I don't believe that steam power would fall under the proscriptions due to its just using water power in a different way. Nor do I believe that a steam engine is going to set off the orbital weapons due to Merlin being able to fly around in his skimmer without it triggering. That assumes that its automatic which I think we have reason to doubt due to the mentioning of a key that they Wysllyms have.

Charis is at the point where production rates are far more important to their survival than a new wonder weapon.

I appreicate that you are taking a solid long-term view. The infrastructure to support the war effort is more important then the lastest toy in the pipeline. Merlin may nudge someone towards a assembly line facility to improve efficiency and could be implemented rather easily. Perphaps even using some serious hydroelectric power in a dam or several to provide power. Steam may be too much though for even Charis's patent office to stomach....for now. Even a manually operated assembly line could be the increase needed to provide war materials in sufficient quantities. In a few years this could be the cementing factor in making commerical products this way, people with increasing quality of life rates are nearly universally happy and content.

tasos74 wrote:I appreicate that you are taking a solid long-term view. The infrastructure to support the war effort is more important then the lastest toy in the pipeline. Merlin may nudge someone towards a assembly line facility to improve efficiency and could be implemented rather easily. Perphaps even using some serious hydroelectric power in a dam or several to provide power. Steam may be too much though for even Charis's patent office to stomach....for now. Even a manually operated assembly line could be the increase needed to provide war materials in sufficient quantities. In a few years this could be the cementing factor in making commerical products this way, people with increasing quality of life rates are nearly universally happy and content.

Are you seriously suggesting that Charis implements electrical power before steam? Charis is only just beginning to grapple with the theories involved in electricity, let alone build massive hydroelectric dams and the infrastructure necessary to make use of it. They will need steam powered tools just to make the massive volume of wire needed to build the generators, power lines, and electrical motors. Don't even get me started on the engineering work that will be needed to develop these items. At best, electrical power is decades away unless Merlin breaks his rule about having the Charisians figure stuff our on their own and gives them both the knowledge and most of the components needed to set up an electrical based industry without steam.

Sheriff Yoda wrote:I'm thinking that simple production of new weapons is going to be Charis's biggest issue. As the tech base becomes more advanced for weapons the precision in the engineering needed to make the new weapons effective is going to advance as well.

I've seen threads talking about breech loading weapons being the next innovation for the Charisians, this over looks that any breech loading design is an order magintude more complex than a muzzle loader from an engineering and production veiwpoint. More complex generally means more time and more skilled labor needed to produce the componets of the weapon.

Just look at the exploding shells and the production bottleneck they have. The one thing Charris needs more than another new weapon type is a means of mass producing what they've already developed.

This means they NEED steam power. With steam power they can place their production in MORE places than just where water wheels are effective. By being able to have MORE production locations you can have more production.

There isn't enough information on the effeciency of Charis's waterwheel industry, but I feel its safe to say that initial steam powered factories will be less effcient than water wheel power, simply due to newness of steam power.

I don't believe that steam power would fall under the proscriptions due to its just using water power in a different way. Nor do I believe that a steam engine is going to set off the orbital weapons due to Merlin being able to fly around in his skimmer without it triggering. That assumes that its automatic which I think we have reason to doubt due to the mentioning of a key that they Wysllyms have.

Charis is at the point where production rates are far more important to their survival than a new wonder weapon.

Breech loading rifles were available during the ARW Google Ferguson Rifle it was a screw type drop block breech that increased ROF from 3-4 RPM to 8-10 RPM. IIRC only 1000 were built and only used in one battle (Brandywine?)> My feeling is the next big inovation will be purcusion cap firearms both revolvers and rifles. Then it will be more than likely rim fire cartrage ammo.

Safehold already has some of these developments.

john964 wrote:Breech loading rifles were available during the ARW Google Ferguson Rifle it was a screw type drop block breech that increased ROF from 3-4 RPM to 8-10 RPM. IIRC only 1000 were built and only used in one battle (Brandywine?)> My feeling is the next big inovation will be purcusion cap firearms both revolvers and rifles. Then it will be more than likely rim fire cartrage ammo.

True, they were but they were exceedingly rare because of the expense of the weapons which reflected how hard they were to produce. Also loading a breech loader isn't much simpler than a muzzle loader untul you have self contained cartridges.

tasos74 wrote:I appreicate that you are taking a solid long-term view. The infrastructure to support the war effort is more important then the lastest toy in the pipeline. Merlin may nudge someone towards a assembly line facility to improve efficiency and could be implemented rather easily. Perphaps even using some serious hydroelectric power in a dam or several to provide power. Steam may be too much though for even Charis's patent office to stomach....for now. Even a manually operated assembly line could be the increase needed to provide war materials in sufficient quantities. In a few years this could be the cementing factor in making commerical products this way, people with increasing quality of life rates are nearly universally happy and content.

I think you are putting the cart before the horse there buddy. Electricity is one of those things that they NEED to avoid because of the toys Langhorne left in orbit. However I think steam power might be able to get past the proscriptions, though there has been extensive debate on that on the forums.

Short of steam power though can anyone think of a way to up Charis's production?

Sheriff Yoda wrote:Short of steam power though can anyone think of a way to up Charis's production?

The difficulty is that there just aren't many other sources of energy that can be put to mechanical use with pre-steam technology.

Under the right conditions, windmills can have the same amount of output as a waterwheel. However, a windmill's energy source is less reliable than a waterwheel's, so they wouldn't be a significant increase in Charis's production.

Animal powered mills are not nearly as powerful as a water wheel, but they have the benefit of being more flexible in location that either water wheels or windmills. The returns are also much less on animal powered mills because the cost of the animal's upkeep cuts into the profits/efficency. Still, with the livestock on Safehold having a higher work output compared to Earth's animals, this might be a viable option.

Using geothermal vents to drive a piston is pretty much the same as a steam engine with a natural boiler... So that's out.

Getting mechanical energy from the tide is of limited value, since it can only drive a wheel at certain times every day.

Wave energy from the oceans requires extremely well designed Buoys&Turbines, and use exotic materials that resist corrosion from the ocean which would not be available in any kind of bulk to a pre-steam industry. If commonly available materials were used, the cost of maintenance and replacements would probably be far too expensive.

Rook wrote:

Sheriff Yoda wrote:Short of steam power though can anyone think of a way to up Charis's production?

The difficulty is that there just aren't many other sources of energy that can be put to mechanical use with pre-steam technology.

Under the right conditions, windmills can have the same amount of output as a waterwheel. However, a windmill's energy source is less reliable than a waterwheel's, so they wouldn't be a significant increase in Charis's production.

Animal powered mills are not nearly as powerful as a water wheel, but they have the benefit of being more flexible in location that either water wheels or windmills. The returns are also much less on animal powered mills because the cost of the animal's upkeep cuts into the profits/efficency. Still, with the livestock on Safehold having a higher work output compared to Earth's animals, this might be a viable option.

Using geothermal vents to drive a piston is pretty much the same as a steam engine with a natural boiler... So that's out.

Getting mechanical energy from the tide is of limited value, since it can only drive a wheel at certain times every day.

Wave energy from the oceans requires extremely well designed Buoys&Turbines, and use exotic materials that resist corrosion from the ocean which would not be available in any kind of bulk to a pre-steam industry. If commonly available materials were used, the cost of maintenance and replacements would probably be far too expensive.

That's pretty much what I was thinking.

Sheriff Yoda wrote:This means they NEED steam power. With steam power they can place their production in MORE places than just where water wheels are effective. By being able to have MORE production locations you can have more production.

There isn't enough information on the effeciency of Charis's waterwheel industry, but I feel its safe to say that initial steam powered factories will be less effcient than water wheel power, simply due to newness of steam power.

I don't believe that steam power would fall under the proscriptions due to its just using water power in a different way. Nor do I believe that a steam engine is going to set off the orbital weapons due to Merlin being able to fly around in his skimmer without it triggering. That assumes that its automatic which I think we have reason to doubt due to the mentioning of a key that they Wysllyms have.

Charis is at the point where production rates are far more important to their survival than a new wonder weapon.

So far I don’t think the lack of steam power has been a big hindrance. The text evidence doesn’t indicate that production delays were because of a lack of power, but due to other things that steam power wouldn’t help. When Charis starts to produce ironclads that are proof against exploding shells, the demand for steel will require considerably more power than anything they’ve had before. Theoretically, that power could be supplied by hydro-mechanical facilities, but that would require that the manufactories be located on the spot. It’s not practical to transmit mechanical power over large distances, say 100 miles. In an engineering sense the major limiting factors on power generation would be water volume and fall height. On earth, engineering never went that path because hydro-electric power was so much more practical. David Weber doesn’t give us much information about how much power the Delthak facilities generate, but he gives the impression that it’s adequate for Howsmyn’s current needs. It’s not clear how much those facilities can be expanded or if the river has the potential to put out enough mechanical power (water volume and fall height) to drive large scale steel production. I’m sure there are places that have enough water volume and fall height to produce enough power, but they may not be accessible enough to make large scale steel production practical.

The main advantage of steam power is that it can be used anywhere. That means that the manufactories can be distributed throughout the empire and located wherever its convenient. This would allow production capacity to expand more rapidly. I don’t think the weapons platforms in orbit will target steam plants because it would be technically difficult to distinguish between naturally occurring steam and the man made kind. The proscriptions, however, pose another kind of problem. My impression was that Langhorne and his cadre were specifically trying to prevent the development of technology of that kind. It shouldn’t be too hard to develop wording that would make it clear that steam power was prohibited. I realize that when people really want something, they can come up with all kinds of justifications for exceptions and ways to weasel around rules they don’t like, but I don’t think Father Paityr would lend himself to such and right now Father Paityr is the one who has to approve all new devices.

In short, while steam power would be extremely useful and convenient, I’m not sure that’s where David Weber will take things next. Mind you, I’d love to find out (by reading the next book). I’m anxiously awaiting the next in the series.